Unlocking America Through Inclusion And Equity With Dr. Lawrence Chatters


So I love my job, but does my job love me? This was one of the things that Dr. Lawrence Chatters said in our interview and it stuck with me. I think that's really interesting to think about as employees, as employers, as organizations in that light, right? But we could also think about it in the context of our country. I love my country, but does my country love me? And I think that there's people out there asking that question, and rightly so. So this conversation today is going to talk a little bit about that. It's going to talk a little bit about equity and inclusion, and also how do we unlock the potential of our country through unlocking individuals, through unlocking conversations? And I think that, that's really, really important, not only for us as a country, but us as organizations making sure that we're listening, making sure that we're applying the things that we hear to those around us. So now to what we're going to talk about today in my conversation with Dr. Lawrence Chatters from Midland University. I hope that you get a lot out of this. Let's go. 

All right, here we are with a great exciting discussion today with Lawrence Chatters from Midland University. Now, Lawrence, you are the vice president of student affairs, and now the newly appointed chief diversity officer at Midland. Can you expand on that a little bit? It's a new appointment, a new position that Midland's created now. Expand on that a little bit. With all the stuff that's going on in our country right now, why? Why now? What's that about? Tell me a little bit about that.

Dr. Lawrence Chatters:

So first of all, Skot, thank you so much for the opportunity to be here on your show. I'm really excited about this. And just to talk a little bit about the recent appointment as chief diversity officer here at Midland University, this summer I think our country really went through a very painful time focusing in on itself and the actions of some of the people in our country, specifically surrounding racial injustice. And this is not something that's new to many marginalized people in our country. This is something that is ongoing.

And what I would say about our current position here at Midland is that we recognize that with having a fairly substantial number of students here that identify as from cultural and ethnic identity backgrounds, they realize that school is all about feeling like they belong. And we realize that too. And so in order to further, I think get them to understand that we feel that they belong here at Midland, we've created this position to oversee the strategies and opportunities that we have here at Midland to leverage and truly benefit from the numerous cultures that we have here on campus. And I'm really excited about it. It's something we have been doing here, but this was a formalization of that position so that we can really focus in on that.


And a lot of organizations and companies have been called out. They've been saying, "Hey, what about the values and the mission and your vision of your company and your organization? You talk a lot of talk, but you're being called out by even internal people in your organization as not being true." So that's a people thing, right? Talk about that as far as why now in our country, what's your viewpoint on that? And sprinkling a little bit of your credentials, who you are, what you do, and talk a little bit about your viewpoint on where we are as a country. 


Yeah, absolutely. So I have a doctorate in counseling psychology. So I'm trained as a psychologist. And one of the things that I'm seeing happen right now, honestly, Skot, is that what happens in the household is coming into the workplace. I think there's usually been this demarcation between the two that what happens at home stays at home, right? And so therefore if you're struggling with issues at home, whether those be issues in your family, with your kids or whatever, the expectation is that somehow that's going to stop at home, but now home and work have really melted together, right? And so we've seen this. I mean, if you have done anything on Zoom or Google Hangouts or whatever, you see people's surroundings, you see where they are, you see the things that they're dealing with now. And so I think it's really opened the eyes of people in that space to understand that when they hire a person they're really hiring that person and everything that comes with that person. 

So that could include two young school aged children that are now in the back on a computer somewhere trying to take classes, which as we all know, can be very difficult to manage that and work. But what I think we've also seen here as a result of coronavirus and racial injustice and everything, is we've really seen this raised awareness about the inequities that exist in our world, right? And the overwhelming expectations that we have of some people in our society that other people don't have so much. And so I think that when I think of that from a psychological perspective, what I'm recognizing is that people in some of these higher spaces that have gotten to where they are, and then been the ones to shape those values and those principles and everything else, now they're being called to task to be more empathetic to the cause of the people that they serve. 

And honestly, when you get to some of those spaces, what increases? Privilege, right? So if you're making more money and you're in a position of leadership, you have more privilege. There's certain things that you may not have to worry about. But now those things are coming directly into the workplace and we're being forced to then look at how do we start to manage some of these inequities, so that everybody does have an equitable opportunity to be an employee. And so I think that's what we're seeing right now. And it is an extremely... to me it's an exciting point in our country because I do think that without a watershed moment like this, where the people who have privilege are being forced to see the inequities and deal with them, and actually recreate those systems so that those inequities don't exist.

I mean, that is a chief diversity officer or a person who's been dealing with inclusion and equity for an extended period of time. That's our dream. There haven't been many opportunities like this, where those folks have been forced to the table to look at things in a different way. And so not only is that happening when it comes to COVID and some of the challenges that present there, Skot, but it's also happening when it comes to racial injustice. Now we have these three or four people in certain spaces where they might be the minority and the majority is there, and now everybody in the majority is having a feeling of potentially some guilt or whatever the case might be.

And those people are now able to take that company to task to say, "What is this company doing to support, whether it be black lives matter or some other movement that might have to do with supporting marginalized groups? What are we doing as a company? Because I work here and I love my job, but does my job love me? Right?" Those questions are being taken a lot more seriously now. And there's weight with it because if a company can't come out and say, "Hey, we do support this, or we're going to contribute to this, or we are going to raise awareness about these issues of certain people in our organization." Then that company, as you said, they're called in to question one, whether or not these principles and values that they espouse are the truth.

And so do you see how it all fits together? It's all about equity. And it's all about the people who have traditionally not had a voice, gaining a voice. And there's serious consequences for large companies if they cannot come out and provide some level of awareness or training or support for some of these causes. And that gives the person who is powerless power, and it gives the people who have traditionally had power, it really calls them into question on leadership. And so that's really what we're facing as a whole. I hope I've been able to wrap that up. It's an increase in equity of the privileged... Sorry, an increase in empathy of the privilege, and it's an increase in power of the marginalized. When you see those two things butt up against each other, that's where you see the kind of instability that we're having in our society right now.


I love this. Coming from the background of working with external marketing, right? Of trying to attract more customers, more clients for businesses over the course of my career, it's always been customer first. How are we going to get that customer to love us? How are we going to build brand loyalty from the external standpoint of things? But hold on a second, what about the most important client customer that we have, which is our employees? Are the people that produce for us, the people that make the things, the people that ideate, the people that brainstorm, the people that create and then sell that product or that service to our external market. Do we love them as much as we love or want to love our external customer, right? And that was great. Like, "Hey, I love my job, but does my job love me?"

In order to create loyalty inside our organization and trust, we need to feel that reciprocation, right? And we feel that, that's why we get married, right? I mean, you don't get married in a one side relationship. It's not, "Hey, I'm so in love with you. Let's get married." And the other person is like, "All right." You don't do that. It's like, "Oh, I love you too. We should spend our lives together. That is what marriage is about because it's built on brand loyalty and trust. So I love what you're saying. So you've been talking about this a little bit. So what do we do about it? I know that's the million dollar question. And maybe you should run for president if you get this right. But what do we do about it in this country as Americans? 


Well, the first thing I think that's really important, and this comes from my background as a psychologist, is that listening is so incredibly important. And I think that the people who do have privilege have to spend more time listening to the people who are marginalized. And I think in doing that, there's this terminology that says that high tides raise all boats. I do believe that through the process of actually listening to the people who are struggling and are not necessarily able to fully be in work because they have other things going on and understanding their perspective and what it takes to help them be successful despite the challenges that they face, I think you truly better your company in that. Okay? Because if you're understanding some of the unique challenges that face those folks that feel like this job may be their everything, this is what really it takes for them to be successful, is to be in your space and be able to have something that makes them feel like they belong and have a purpose. 

And that's what really they find is the incredibly attractive part of the offer and the business and everything that they are serving. Therefore, if you understand what it is that really challenges them, I think you truly understand more about your customer base as well. Right? I think you brought in an understanding of who your customer base is and what types of struggles and challenges they're facing too. And I think something we forget is that, I think often in business we try to find a niche of people that we get a chance to really work closely with, right? If you have a specific thing, you work with a specific group of people. But what about all the people that you don't work with? Those are all opportunities where you could be gaining some additional revenue from those groups that you don't necessarily work with and somehow you miss them, right?

I think in business we are taught... And by the way, I do have a background in business. I own an energy drink company. And it's something that I think about all the time. I think about, "Yeah. I do have this specific group of people over here that love my energy drink, but what about all the other people that don't even know about it? Right?" And to me, that's what we're seeing happen in the workplace too, is that yes, we do serve a small group of people well when it comes to them being our employees, but what about all the other people who are just barely hanging on and if something goes wrong in their life then they're going to lose this job? What kind of rules and regulations and standards do we have in our business that are actually discriminatory to the people who really want to work for our business or be successful in our business, right? 

And so when you think of it that way, you start to create a more inclusive workspace and you start to include all of these people whose opinions haven't necessarily risen to the top. Because number one, they may not necessarily be seen as important in the company because maybe they're not in a specific position, or maybe their work isn't seen as important. But I think that when you start to ask their opinion, you'll be surprised what you get. And you'll be surprised how you can better serve everybody in your organization from the top all the way through. And so I think listening is exceptionally important, Skot, and I do think that we have to figure out who we're forgetting and we have to bring them to the table and discuss what they need.

Now, here's the thing. It's not going to change the fabric of your company, but it is going to improve the feelings of belongingness of the people that work for you. And honestly, we've seen from research that people who feel they belong in an organization do better work, they take their work more seriously, we get better results from them, and they have that sense of purpose and that creates more longevity in a position. And so those are some of the things that I think we should start doing across the board. And I think that would help a lot. 


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Yeah, we found the MBTI, the Myers-Briggs science says about 82% of our population feels undervalued, misunderstood, not heard. 82%, that's huge, right? Eight out of 10 people in your meeting right now, 80 out of a hundred that you're speaking to at some kind of function are not feeling valued, heard or understood. And that's a problem. And if you're at the top, if you're leading an organization and you're leading a team, you're leading whatever, an eight out of 10 people don't feel valued, heard or understood, you've got a problem. It's not their problem, it's your problem. And it's your organization's problem. Ultimately, it's our country's problem because we're losing a lot of money. We're losing a lot of potential because of that. So how do we unlock the potential of our country in that, right? What is great about this country? How do we unlock that potential of what we have here as America?


So that is, man, that's the billion dollar question, right? I mean, we do have a significant amount of potential in our country. We have amazing people here. We have so many great resources and we have a great system in my opinion. I think there's a lot of great things about our American system, but we also have a significant amount of inequity. And I think that there's three things I want to focus on here, Skot. Number one, people have to have access. Okay? People don't have access, whether that be to education, whether that be to healthcare, whether that be to nutrition, different things that are these foundational components of a good life and the ability to grow in a more healthy way, then they're just not able to truly unlock their potential. How can you unlock your potential if you're hungry, right? How can a child unlock their potential in class if they're not eating anything healthy at home, and they don't have the proper opportunities to be safe in their neighborhood, and they don't have any financial backing or support?

So we need to try to work toward decreasing the inequity in our country in a number of different ways to unlock the potential of people. I know that I'm more successful, my daughters are more successful, my wife is more successful when we feel safe, when we feel loved, when we have support, when we have financial means, right? It clears my head a little bit. That doesn't mean that my life isn't hard because I'm not struggling financially, but it does give me an opportunity to give my best at work when I don't have to worry about whether or not my daughters are walking to school and being accosted. Right? So if you think about that, imagine all the potential that exists in our country right now that can't be unlocked because of lack in those three different areas. Right? So if we start to work toward decreasing inequity in our country, you're going to see a positive correlation to the potential being unlocked in our country.

And so that does happen through people having proper health care so they can be okay and they can thrive rather than just trying to survive, right? That does include getting a better education and having opportunities to expand our opportunities for education and our opportunities to learn about what it takes to be successful in our country and everything else. And then finally just this component of safety and the ability to have access to certain spaces. That means creating more chances for students that might have the academic ability, but don't have the financial ability to go on and further their education, to offer professional development to people at every level in your company, right?

Think about that. How much potential can you unlock if you're thinking about an organization? If everybody gets professional development opportunities to grow themselves in their way of thinking, you start to get so much more out of those individuals. So those are some of the areas that I think we can really push forward in this country to support folks across the board. And again, it's all about the people who have those opportunities understanding what can happen if everybody has those opportunities, it'll be an amazing thing. 


So briefly hit on... You said there was a lot, briefly hit those three points. What are the three again?


So access, okay? When we're talking about access we're talking about better education, we're talking about better nutrition, and we're talking about health care. And I think all of those things are interconnected.


Perfect. That's huge, right? Access. And especially in this day and age of the digital world in which we live, people would say we have access to a lot. We have access to a ton of information, right? Almost too much. There are people who will say, "Yeah, you got too much access to that, right? We need to." But that has created this world of communication, which we have the ability to be heard a little bit more, right? I understand that impact.

So Dr. Chatters looking at what we are as a country, who we are as a country, who we are as organizations that make up this country, whether you're in private, public, whatever it is, how do we move forward? Right? That's the question. So I hear a lot of people right now talking about, "Okay, let's listen. Hey, I'm listening. I'm listening to you. I hear you." Right? We've heard that as well. Once we get past the point of hearing, once we get past the point of listening, which I agree is number one, I don't care if you're marketing a new company, or if you are talking about any quality, or if we're talking about families and children, I hear you, now what do I do about it? 


That's another great question. And I think what we have to do about it, Skot, honestly, is we have to act, we have to turn the things that we're learning and understanding into action. And it has to be positive action. And it has to be cohesive action with the people in our communities. Anytime you build community, anytime you have an opportunity to bring people together, to then focus on the things that they love, and then also focused on the fact that there's similarities between them and the people who might be considered to be different from them or whatever the case might be, I think you start to see positive action. And this is something that I can talk about specifically in a company perspective, right? And what do we do companies when we need to see change? 

Well, we create strategic groups, right, where we bring people together. They look at a problem from different angles and they listen to folks, they go out, they survey, they get information. Then they come back, they consolidate that information, they put a report together and then they present it to the company. Right? And what I want you to understand about that same concept is that, that's how we seek change in our society, is by bringing people together from different perspectives, listening, understanding what the issue is. But then there's got to be an action, right? And what I say the action is honestly, is we all have to push ourselves and our households and our families to try to bridge some of these gaps that exist in our society.

In my family I always talk with my daughters about privilege. I always talk with my daughters about some of the race issues that are happening in the country. They experience those things in their day to day lives. My wife is from a white German background and I'm African-American. And so with that combination of things, my daughters are biracial and they experienced a significant amount of microaggressions on a daily basis in their lives. And so we talk about that all the time and I have to teach my daughters how to deal with those things. But what I was really hoping is that through better understanding what those things are, that some of the parents of the kids who are maybe utilizing some of those microaggressions would also talk with their kids about not doing that, right? Understanding different cultures and understanding that we do have these differences, but still we're similar people.

And so, again, it can't just be a one sided thing, right? If there's going to be an issue that's brought up and we're going to listen and we're going to think about it, both parties have to make a change. We have to start moving toward change. And that's why having these opportunities for professional development and corporations and organizations are so important, because that's where a person gains their paycheck from. It should also be the place where they gain some movement in their own personal beliefs and benefiting from what the company can offer. And I'm not sure that's something that most companies have taken on, right? They do some things, but they're not going to say, "Okay. Well, we want to help you further develop as a person."

And so when I think about psychology and how that really connects, that's exactly what I do with the people that I work with, that I do therapy sessions with. I am helping them build their own personal brand to be better. We're looking for deficiencies. We're helping to make those things better. We're giving them a chance to be introspective, but then we're coming up with solutions and I'm giving them interventions and actions that they can utilize. That needs to be incorporated into everything that we do in our spaces, in our homes. And that's when we'll start to see the movement in my opinion, 


Love it because here's what we talk about, right? When we go to organizations, when we go in and we're deciphering anything, it's getting a baseline. It's taken a gaging where we are, right? Let's understand where we are first, so we understand the progress that needs to be made. And that's going to take listening. That's going to take that interest, that look to the inside. That's going to take an evaluation of who we are, what we are, and then understanding what do we want to become, where do we want to go? And then, like you said, understanding, okay, what do we need to work on to get there? So personal development is huge.

You mentioned here one of the biggest mistakes companies are making is creating arbitrary boundaries, workday hours, workspace, restricted company policies that lack inclusion. So talk about this arbitrary boundary's idea, this creating arbitrary boundaries. What did you mean by that? 


So I want you to just, and I'll just describe this to you. So I've been to Los Angeles quite a few times, and one of the things that people complain about a lot is the traffic, right? And the big question is, well, why is there so much traffic? And I think if we think about it, it's because so many companies require people to be in the workspace for work, right? And so I wake up in the morning and where I could maybe sit down and have a great cup of coffee and prepare myself to go sit on my computer in my bedroom or my home office, I'm on the road for an hour and a half sitting in traffic, just upset at my life because there's so much traffic. And I'm wondering, "Where are all of these people going?"

That's an example of that, Skot, is just I think coronavirus has really encouraged companies to recognize that the person who you have sitting in your office space can be just as productive or even more sitting in a space that's more comfortable for them, which might be their home. Maybe that person has, and this is where it connects with equity and inclusion, maybe that person comes from a blended family where they have an older family member who might be struggling with dementia or Alzheimer's who they need to be able to be there with instead of having someone else come in to support that person, but they can work in their office from home and be just as productive. That's what I'm saying when I say these arbitrary boundaries, it's like somebody sets the rules at some point, and then those are just the rules, right? We don't often go back and try to figure out, well, who set these rules and why? And who do these rules truly benefit versus the people who are currently working for our company, right? 

That goes the same with work hours. Oh, we need to be here from 9:00 to 5:00. You need to be here from 9:00 to 5:00. Well, guess what, what if I'm the most productive from 5:00 to 8:00, right? I mean, so these are some of the things that I'm talking about. And when that aligns with equity, what I want to also say as far as inclusion is concerned is, there've been so many people, Skot, that haven't been able to get a job because they have mobility issues, because they have other issues of access and just being able to move to a space. And to me that's not fair, right? I mean, if I can do the same job and do a great job from home, and I'm sitting at home and I happen to be wheelchair bound, and I happened to be in a position where I cannot step into the workspace, I mean, what's the difference if I'm still getting the job done, right? That's truly equity.

And so that's what I'm saying. I think as we start to remove some of these arbitrary boundaries and we start to go back and figure out who do our current rules and the way we do things benefit and how can we gain some of the people outside of those rules, and who might also have great ideas, right? Very similar to what I talked about, the people, the customers we don't get and how they may still be customers. I think things are going to open up, right?

Now, there might be some other industries that die as a result of that. The office building I think we might see the end of that at some point, right? But that's just some of the examples. It's like, why drive an hour and a half to and from work when you can make up three hours at home doing that work in your home office, right? And Zoom, I mean, I have no idea where you are right now, Skot, but I'm looking at you right now and you're looking at me, and we are in an equitable way sharing a screen and both being able to share ideas in totally different spaces. And again, that in and of itself is inclusive.


There is something really interesting about your perspective. Okay? Because you're talking about different things. Your career has been expansive. You are business owner turned philanthropist, turned higher education professional. Yeah, energy drink company, mental health, student affairs, equity and inclusion. You're all over the place. Your unique perspective is really interesting about all of this and what we can do as a country. And what is the impact you see this happening from your perspective of all angles, okay, for the next generation? You teach at a university, you're mingling with students every day, what do you see happening with the next generation? How do we unlock their potential to be great, to help continue to make our country great?


Oh man, that's a great question, Skot, because that's what I get to do every single day. Not only in my own family, with my daughters who are 12 and 15, but with the college students that I get a chance to work closely with. And one of the things I recognize about the next generation is that I feel like they believe that there are really no limits when it comes to information like you talked about, right? My daughter can go and learn how to knit by watching YouTube. She can figure out how to launch her own podcast by listening to one, and then watching how it is produced. I mean, I think that's amazing and truly wish that we had those abilities when we were growing up and stuff. I remember going to the encyclopedia to look up stuff, right, and just wondering what it was.

But I think this generation truly recognizes number one, that they have access to a significant amount of information, but also through what's happened over the summer and the fact that I've seen a lot of these young people get involved in protests and things, they recognize that their voice can make a difference. They recognize that their presence and their energy and their time can make a difference. What do I mean by that as well? I mean that there are 15 and 16 year olds that have millions of followers that are making millions of dollars on a daily basis because they are influencers. And I think that's something that is truly changed in our society, is that our youth are seeing their path to success in different ways. They're not necessarily feeling like they have to get a college education to be successful in life. 

They know that there are other things that they can do. They recognize that they have to gain a following. They recognize that they have to, in a sense, be viral in order to generate funds, which is like any company, right? I mean, why does everybody want to advertise during the super bowl, right? Because so many people are watching so they can potentially go viral. So I do see our current generation is seeing a different path to success than we did. And I do also believe that this generation is a hardworking generation, that they're dedicated to the cause, they can focus in on something and be successful at it. I see that with my college students here all the time. I am incredibly, incredibly excited and hopeful about the future because I do believe that the next generation is going to do it different than we did. 

And I think that means they're going to be more inclusive. They're going to understand the difference in distance between us as human beings. My daughter follows some people out in California she's never seen before. She's a golfer, and so she follows some golfers that are in California. And she can see their everyday life. We didn't have that opportunity growing up, right? And so the world in a sense, our country has become smaller so we can share people's viewpoints and get a really up close and personal look into their life in a different way. And I think that's having an impact on our students. I'm finding overall that our students, especially the students that are here at my university, Midland, they're very inclusive people. They're like, "Hey, let people do what they want to do. That's their life, right?" Because they watch those people every day and there's more they can relate to, as opposed to me thinking there's someone else in a different space that I've never met before and not knowing what that person believes in, right?

So I am very hopeful about the future. And I think the way we unlock that potential is some of the stuff that we've already talked about. We do need to listen to them. We need to understand their perspective. They have a different way of doing things. We can't just always do things the same for the sake of doing it the same. So I think they do hold the key to the future and a positive outcome for our country. And I'm extremely, extremely hopeful for them. And especially as I look at my daughters and see the way that they see the world and what they understand because they've had so much access to information, man, we have some pretty serious discussions. And I'm just impressed with their intellectual abilities and the way that they look at the world and what kind of influence they feel they can have.


Right on. I couldn't have said it better because I'm not you. And mainly, but I think your unique perspective is really insightful. And the things you experienced working with these students every day, it's boots on the ground, thank you for educating them and being an influence in their life and being a good example for them. Is there some way my audience can get in touch with you? Is there's something you can offer them to better them, to help unlock them? What would you like to offer them and how can they get in touch with you? 


So one of the things that's been really unique about my life story, Skot, is that I've been able to see a number of different perspectives and be in a number of different industries. I like to offer that unique perspective to people, especially when it comes to inclusion and equity. And so I'd be certainly willing to do a free inclusion and equity consultation with anyone of your listeners if they want to reach out to me just to have the discussion. I love to talk to people. I am a psychologist by trade, and so anybody that just wants to talk and run their perspective by me, or maybe even ask about having a viewpoint that they feel is marginalized in their organization and how they can go to these people in that organization to be heard, I'm certainly willing to talk with people through that.

And people can just reach out to me. I have a Facebook page, it's Dr. Lawrence Chatters-Motivational Speaker. And they can reach out to me on there by direct messaging me. I'm on Twitter @LCHAT1. I'm on Instagram, but I don't really post a lot on there, but certainly I'm open to connecting with your listeners and just having conversations with them. That's again, a part of how we're going to solve our problem, Skot, is just by having constructive conversations, courageous conversations that focus in on how can I better understand your viewpoint and how can we come together and work together? Because I think our country is absolutely amazing when we come together and we work together. We've seen that time and time again. After 911, after some of the natural disasters that we faced, our country comes together, we focus in on a problem and we solve it. 

And I think that there may be some lacking in that right now. I think we're so divided in ways that we have a whole group of people working on this issue and a whole group of people working on that issue. And when everything's said and done, honestly, it's the same issue, but we're working on it in different spaces, in different directions. And so I think we need to come together. And that's what I love to talk to people about, how to create those spaces, how to have those conversations with the people who are important in their life. And honestly, how to bring inclusion into their family and the teachings of their family, because I believe that we all do value, love and respect. And so that's what I can offer. I can just offer a person to bounce ideas off of, some consulting. And this is something I can do as a volunteer thing in my life. And so there's definitely some opportunities there for folks if they're interested, 


I hope you enjoyed that. There's a lot of good conversation happening there. A lot of good things to think about too. And I know that we've been hearing a lot of these different conversations right now happening around COVID, around racial injustice and the things that are happening in our country. One thing that didn't get recorded that he and I talked about a little bit afterwards, I hope it's okay that I share this, was about us rallying as a nation. The thing is that when 911 happened, there was a lot of rallying as a country. But that was an external enemy, right? That was an enemy from the outside coming in and causing destruction and terror and things inside of this country that was really easy for us as a country to rally around.

Dr. Lawrence Chatter said something interesting in our summary talk about, why didn't we treat COVID the same way? Why don't we treat racial injustice the same way, as a thing of war? Why don't we rally around a cause and go to war against that cause instead of fighting with each other, instead of pointing fingers, pointing blame? And why don't we rally around a cause and fight that? That's really interesting. And how do we do that as organizations, right? And it's not just about COVID, it's not about racial injustice all the time, it may be just about an issue inside organizations, something that we need to rally around as organizations so that we can overcome that with unity, with a clear vision of what we want and where we want to go and what we want to do.

And that's what it's about. That is what's going to bring unification. That is what's going to bring inclusiveness. That's what's going to bring you quality within our organizations. We can't always change everything from the top down, sometimes it takes from the bottom up. And it's about including, and it's about attacking those problems on a micro level and hopefully it expands out and changes things for the greater good. So thank you again for being here. This was another episode of Unlocked. And again, it's all about unlocking the potential of us as people, so then we can unlock the potential of our companies, our organizations, and ultimately humanity. So thank you again, and I will see you next time.


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