Hi, welcome to another episode of Unlocked. I'm Skot. Today, we're going to talk about unlocking the potential of people, unlocking the potential of our healthcare system, combined with insurance topics and culture. Yeah, it's going to be a good one. Ben Conner is on the show. He is the owner, CEO, president of Conner Insurance up in Indianapolis. Now, here's the thing, you're all going, "Insurance people? I get it. They're just trying to sell me another policy. I get it. Insurance people, I see them all the time. I've got an insurance guy." Listen, Ben is not trying to sell you on anything in this, except the idea that we have a problem with healthcare in this country and we have a problem with leadership and the way we look at helping our employees feel cared for in this country. So, there is a bigger message and a bigger meaning behind what Ben is going to say and talk about on this interview. You'll see.
So, I go into some of the credentials of what Conner Insurance has done in the past several years here, it's a family-owned business. But I will tell you about Ben. So, Ben has been a rising star in advising, 2020 Broker of the Year Award, 40 Under 40 recipient, 25 Fastest Growing Companies recognition. He isn't just kind of off to the side doing his insurance thing. He is in the community, in the business world making an impact. It's not just because he is driven individual that wants to succeed in business. It's because he understands the value of people and the role they play in helping the success of business. So, this is going to be a really good conversation. Don't be fooled by Ben, the insurance guy. He's got a lot of depth and a lot of gold nuggets in this conversation that you are going to hear, that you're going to appreciate. So, listen, and pay attention, stay till the end, because there's some awesome stuff at the end of this interview as well. So, thanks a lot. Here we come, Ben. Mr. Ben Conner, welcome to the show. Good to have you.
Ben Conner:
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Skot Waldron:
So, give us a little background. Where are you right now in your life? What are you doing? What are you shaping? How are you changing the world? Easy stuff.
BEN CONNER:
All right. Just the simple things, I think. So, we'll start with what's most important about me. Married with three beautiful daughters still in the toddler phase. So, they're four, three and one. So, you can imagine what home life is like at this point. Also run a family insurance agency, we're based out of Indianapolis, Indiana. It's the third generation. So, founded by my grandfather, then transition to my dad and his three brothers. Now, it's me and five others that are part of the family as well. So, again, based out of Indianapolis, insurance agency, consultancy, do employee benefits, commercial insurance, personal insurance, have about 42 employees. Fun fact, in 2019, all but one employee was in Indianapolis. Now we have two employees that are across the United States and then two employees that are global. So, pandemic changes us a little bit.
SKOT WALDRON:
It did. But now you can say you run a global organization.
BEN CONNER:
We do, global, absolutely.
SKOT WALDRON:
That's it. That's it. So, that's awesome. That's awesome. Now, you're downplaying this a little bit, okay. Because in our intro conversation it's like, "Oh cool. Ben's got some awesome stuff to say. I want to share this stuff on my show. It's awesome." Then, I read your bio and I was like, "Whoa, hold up. Ben, stop eating the humble pie, dude." You have been crushing it. Since 2015, you've doubled in revenue and you've grown over this 42 employee space. We talked about your transition from doing the work to now being a leader and running an organization. You kind of are making that transition now. Your growth has accelerated over the past several years, you're continuing to grow. You were recognized as one of the 100 healthiest workplaces in 2014, '15, '16, and '17. So, give other people a chance, Ben, goodness. Named healthiest employer in Indiana in 2016. Was a top 10 finalist for the best places to work in Indiana in 2021. That's pretty awesome. Why this stuff, healthiest place to work, best workplace, there's an emphasis there obvious, that's not by accident. So, what's going on there? Tell me about that.
BEN CONNER:
Good question. I think the foundation for all of that is business is about people. When you look at those accolades, one, it takes a lot of people to achieve those type of accolades. Also, it's about, in our pursuit of that is we want to be a workplace that totally stands apart in how we treat people, not only internally, but how we treat our clients and how we pursue relationship and do that in a different way. Ever since I started, we've talked about, "This is a family business." And sometimes, people try to use that as a negative like, "Oh, it's just a family business." We have really, I would say, since about 2017 in particular, we've used that to be just a powerful force on our behalf in a positive way. Where we are pursuing the idea of family and anyone that comes on board to Conner Insurance is part of the Conner Insurance family.
And we even joke with them that like, "Hey, look, I didn't choose to be a Conner. It shows me. But you guys chose to join this crazy family." And we just laugh about that. But there's power in that and in doing it well. I think, a shout out really needs to go to a couple individuals I'll name specifically, but Todd Hufford is business partner, he's our COO, he's really been critical and key to the success in our business, in our growth and some of those things, as well as Annie Spencer, she is our HR and her fingerprints are all over the execution of what our intent is of culture and how we build our family, how we manage our family, and really putting those guardrails in, but also being really... Applying the intent and the execution.
SKOT WALDRON:
So, people. I laugh too when I talked to people too, I was like, "Man, business would be really easy if it just weren't for the people." Yeah?
BEN CONNER:
Sure.
SKOT WALDRON:
If we didn't have to manage anybody or have anybody cause problems, business would be awesome. We could just do business all day. But then people come in and they cause problems. But I think it's in your perspective of viewing people. So, sure, there's going to be problems. I'm sure at Conner, you guys have people problems at times, just like everybody else in the world. Right? But I think it's your perspective on what people mean and how you treat them as a result of this philosophy of family that you have that helps overcome those challenges or work through those challenges in a healthy way. So, that approach of family, is there something that you use there as kind of a gold nugget to help work through some of these people issues?
BEN CONNER:
Yeah. I think that our, I guess, corporate superpower is our approach to relationship and conflict. Let's be real, nobody likes conflict, nobody. Even if you're good at dealing with it, you don't like it. But also a lot of people are really bad at conflict and don't know how to deal with issues. I think the corporate superpower comes from what I've learned from stories about my grandfather and his approach, which is kind of a family legacy, then to my dad and my uncles and obviously their spouses, my aunts and my mother. We're not perfect. If you spent a day, a week with us, you'd be like, "Man, they don't do everything well all the time." It's like, "No, of course we don't." But I think we have a very different and ultimately a healthy approach to conflict, which is simply just to pursue people who we have conflict with and try to solve those issues directly instead of running away.
We did little things along the way. I think the first part was when we did review or 360 reviews or whatever, we started leaving people's names at the top of the review, this is how this person is reviewing you, rather than it being anonymous. Because when we were finding when things were anonymous, if there was hard things that you were hearing about your performance, you don't know what to do with it. It's kind of just totally defeating. So now, if you hear hard things, you can pursue the individual that gave you their honest feedback to talk about improvement and to talk about reconciliation. Also, if someone says that someone is fantastic and is doing a great job, that helps build relationships and you can go to that individual and say, "Thank you. That was really kind. I appreciate you saying that." So, I think our approach to conflict is really... That was kind of a foundation and it's advanced since then.
SKOT WALDRON:
Wow. You go ahead first into the fire, you're running into that building. That's quite different from a lot of individuals and that's really going to be probably on a person-by-person basis. But if you have that overall philosophy, and if you, as the leader, is setting the tone for that, then that trickles down. So goes the leader, goes the people, the culture. So, that's really cool. So, let me ask you about that 360 real quick. How do you know people are telling you the truth then if their name's going to be on the top of it?
BEN CONNER:
Typically, people still give feedback that is important. So, that's the other part of relationship and conflict is we need to be adults and give people feedback that is going to help them succeed and grow. If you withhold that, that's a you problem, that's not the problem of then the person that should be receiving the feedback. So, that definitely is the other side of the coin. I think what we found in the process is we've trained people to be respectfully honest and have trained people into candor on that front. I also think we've removed and we're in the process of it, as we grow, we still have to continue to work on this, but it removes the gossip type stuff. Or, "I'm going to complain about how this person, they sneeze too loud."
You're not going to put that on a review if your name's at the top anymore and complain about those little things that don't matter. Those are things that if you have a problem with, you address with them individually, but you certainly don't go to talk about it to other people. If you want to put it on a review, it's up to you, that's what is living on. But it's just left us like, let's keep the main thing the main thing, let's talk about what can legitimately help people improve and grow and become better at what they do professionally and also better of how they approach it personally.
SKOT WALDRON:
Very cool. Very cool. Yeah. It's not something you hear every day about putting the name on the 360. It's like, "Yeah, I said that." But with that comes a testimony of psychological safety, which is when Google did a study called Project Aristotle, where they wanted to find out what created a high performing team inside of Google and interviewed over 150 different teams inside Google and psychological safety was the number one reason, number one outcome of a high performing team was that there was safety there. There was safety to challenge safely. There was safety to criticize, in a good way, in a healthy way. But also to bring up that conflict, going to that conflict knowing that I was going to come out of it with all my limbs and with my dignity and all those other things. So, I think that that's really cool that you've taken that risk, because that's risky on your side too, to do that.
BEN CONNER:
It wasn't received well at first, I will say, because it's counter corporate maybe, I shouldn't say maybe even counter culture, but certainly counter corporate. I think we still have to evaluate over time what should be anonymous or what should be direct, because not everything needs to be direct in people accountable to what they say, because there can be times... I'll give you a good example. When we started, we wanted to get feedback early on in the pandemic of where people were at, so we could navigate the culture appropriately. Obviously, we want to do it safety based on the information we had at hand from a scientific perspective and otherwise, but we also had the emotional front of our workforce and how people digest information.
What we found was, or what our approach was, is that we all, especially early on, we don't know what is going on and we wanted people to have the space where they could share their emotions of the moment and not feel like they were held accountable to that ongoing. So, actually, our pandemic response was anonymous initially, not only anonymous to how do I personally feel about what is going on? But anonymous of how is the corporation handling our approach to this? Because, again, we were all like, "This is what I feel like today, that doesn't... New information may come out tomorrow and I might change my mind," and that's fine. So, we have to adapt and change.
I think another thing to that as we've grown is people are on a different levels from just a personality type of how they handle conflict or how comfortable conflict is. So, people that are very uncomfortable with conflict, that's difficult for them. We need to give space to learn or to protect people on that too. So, there's also some navigation there. So, it's not necessarily like, this is our approach, and hammer meets nail, but there definitely is kind of an art to it also.
SKOT WALDRON:
That's good. Yeah. Take the situation for what it is, present itself and be smart and intentional about what you're doing. There's not a one size fits all. It's an art, not a science. And a lot of philosophy that goes into that, which is really, really smart on your part. Let's transition a little bit to your book. It was released earlier this year, it's a collaborative piece of writing between you and some other authors. The book is called Life and Death Decisions in the C-suite. But you talk about, I'm assuming you talk about insurance and healthcare in this book, but you also talk about leadership. Is this an insurance healthcare book? Is this a leadership book? Tell me about it.
BEN CONNER:
Yeah, it's both. Because I think the genesis is, again, I'm part of the NextGen Benefits network, which is a collaboration of leading business owners and insurance consultants in the healthcare space across the country. I think what we're seeing that everyone can probably agree with is that what we're doing in healthcare is not working holistically for employees and employers. And even when we say employees, I would say the American public, people that are in the United States, it's not working for us. The reality is, is that most Americans, about 50% are receiving their healthcare deliverable through their employer. So, it's both. When you talk about healthcare, it has to be leadership because employers are involved. And to navigate what we're doing, ultimately, the decisions are made by the leaders of these organizations.
So, our book, Life and Death Decisions in the C-suite is really about the idea that healthcare is broken. The employers are in the seat that they can make meaningful change. And the reality is healthcare and health insurance has been turned in something very important, but has been turned into a process, a renewal process where we go through and we pick a plan and we pick deductibles, all the nerdy things that people really hate. But the outcome is, the reason why we do all of that is because at some point in our lives, we're going to have healthcare events. And anytime we have a healthcare event, especially anything over a minor circumstance, it can be a life or death situation, where someone can end up even in a minor surgery, if you're with the wrong surgeon or provider, you could have an outcome that changes your life forever. If there was a mistake, you could be in a wheelchair or you could be killed when there's a mistake.
So, the book talks out the seriousness and the change that needs to happen in our approach to our deliverable of healthcare and health insurance to our employees. And a lot of that is mindset change. My chapter in the book, it's called Mission Driven Benefits. It's about just that. It's the mindset shift from leadership teams and my call is around culture and how do we take this topic of healthcare and health insurance, and how do we graft that into what we're doing overall in our culture? Because I think leaders, and I know from myself in particular, as you mentioned earlier, we spend so much time and effort and money in curating the culture that we want for our business.
And when you look at usually in a healthcare or health insurance environment, that sits outside. It's like we are doing these great, great things. But if you look at our healthcare plan, it's a budget restrictor and this is all I can afford and it doesn't necessarily align. That doesn't have to be the case. My approach is to consult employers of like, "How do you adjust that?" And it has to start in the boardroom and how you're building your foundation or setting your foundation.
SKOT WALDRON:
So, you solved it then. You solved the healthcare insurance problem.
BEN CONNER:
It can be solved, but the reality is, is it takes boldness and a commitment to say, "We're going to do things differently. We're going to invest in our employees. And we're going to be relentless in our communication and effort to why we're doing it this way." Because no one likes change, no one likes different, but that's what it will take to get different outcomes. So, there's a lot of fear with that of the employers and I empathize with that, I have compassion to it, especially in today's environment, it's hard to hire people, it's hard to keep people with the Great Resignation. There's a lot going on inside of everyone's world with what we just went through with the pandemic. So, the idea of doing something different for the employees' betterment, it can be exciting, but there's a lot of fear that comes with that and rightfully so.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah. So, what is the thing that we really need to change? What is the thing that just irks you about the way our current system works?
BEN CONNER:
Oh, just one thing?
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah. Yeah. I said that on purpose, because we have a limit [inaudible 00:24:37].
BEN CONNER:
No one wants to hear about that for a long period of time. I totally understand.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the most common thing, yeah.
BEN CONNER:
One thing is transparency. Because you can talk about transparency in cost of things. You can talk about transparency in contracts. You can talk about transparency in a lot of things. But one thing I would particularly say is transparency in the quality of the provider that you're going to go and see. So, if you think about this, if you're going to have a removal... Or let's say you're going to have a heart surgery, what information are you receiving to know if your heart surgeon is the best heart surgeon? If you think about any surgery you've had, you actually don't get that information. They say, "Hey, go to this individual. They're good. They're nice." What information do you have to prove that?
If you think about every other area of our lives, we know the quality of our TVs. We know the quality of the grill that we're going to buy for summertime. We know the quality of the airlines that we're going to purchase, how often are they on time and all that sort of thing. We don't know the quality of the surgeon that's going to be operating on us, that could kill us if they make a mistake. And if they're they're bad, they have killed people, and that information is available. It's just not transparent to us as consumers. That would change everything if we could have that information. And that was, just like in every other area of the American economy, if that was expected and demanded.
SKOT WALDRON:
Okay. You talked about fear holding people back. Fear is a big driver of self-preservation. For that employer, when you present these ideas, they may seem out of the box, they may seem different, they may seem like, "Hey, we're changing the way it's been done for 50 years that you've been running this company. And now we're going to change some stuff of how we're doing it." Maybe it's 100 years they've been running, but what is that monumental fear? What is that thing that you hear a lot about why people are adverse to changing or adopting a new process?
BEN CONNER:
Well, I think, and if I tie it back to healthcare specifically, I think the fear is, is that employers don't necessarily want to be in the seat of being in the middle of someone's healthcare. That's such a personal and an emotional thing. I think employers in general have a hesitation to being involved in that. I think they do understand the gravity of that. So, I think, ultimately, that is where fear inserts itself when I look at it from an employer's perspective, if you peel back all the other reasons that they'll say it's ultimately like, "This is serious stuff and I don't want to disrupt someone's like personal healthcare decisions." But my belief is we need to, because they don't have, no American has the right information to actually navigate this well on their own. And they need the employer to step in. So, in healthcare, that's the fear, but that's also the opportunity. We just have to really change mindset.
SKOT WALDRON:
So, you said one of the biggest mistakes that people make when it comes to company culture, and I love how you said so simple, they're leaving the people part out of caring for their people. Whoops. It's like, hold on a second. That's a pretty big statement. And pretty simple when you really think about it. I almost read it like this, so we've been having this conversation, you and I, on the show here, but you say, "Okay, so companies are, from a cultural standpoint or whatever," but our system is also driven by legislation and there's a lot of other things out there. We sit there and say, "Well, is the leadership of the country, the leadership of these large insurance corporations or the benefits or the whatever we're we're dealing with, are they also forgetting about the people part of caring for us, the people?"
BEN CONNER:
Yeah. I think Simon Sinek said it really well, if you've read his book, The Infinite Game.
SKOT WALDRON:
Love it.
BEN CONNER:
He talks about how capitalism has been taken too far, so far so that we're making decisions for the outcome of the business that we're stepping over so much opportunity along the way. I definitely think that's what's happened in healthcare is the bottom line is driven everything, and we're talking about healthcare, it's people. But I also think every other businesses, we can get caught up in that too, because that's ultimately, you talk about a publicly traded company or really any company, the leader, their fiduciary responsibility is to their shareholders. There can be some friction there with your people. But the reality is there doesn't have to be, because the people is what drives the business. And I think that's where we've missed it along the way.
I think there is opportunity for that to exist together. I don't think it's a zero-sum game. But I do think you have to curate that to... Each business has to do that for itself. So, the way we do it at Conner Insurance is not going to work elsewhere, because they're not in the Midwest. They're not in Indianapolis. They don't have the same leaders. They don't have the same employees. They may not be in the same business environment. There's so many variables to that. Each organization has to curate that to themselves and to their approach and what works for them. But ultimately we do, we do miss the people side so much.
I think, just to bring that to the local level at Conner, I'll never forget, it was four years ago maybe, we had an employee, who's had a grandparent that was in the process of passing away and she'd been working with us for a while and she let us know. Then, I noticed she was still in her office and I was like, "Are you still here because you're trying to maximize how you use your PTO?" And thankfully, she was honest. She's always been honest. She's a great, great partner for our company. She was like, "Yeah." And I was like, "Get out of here. You need to go. You can't get this time back. You need to be with your grandparent." And that really impacted my view of like, "Okay, what are we doing here?"
So, we changed our PTO policy where after the first year, we call it flex, but technically it's unlimited. We don't have a specific day and that sort of thing. That works for us. Because we're a bunch of adults here and we need to all act like adults here and we need to communicate and we need to operate in that fashion. So, the freedom that I have with my own PTO as an owner and a leader of the business, that same and now applies to everybody and we just all need to act like adults. You might be like, "Why don't you do it in the first year?" The reason why we don't do it in the first year is because our culture needs to be established in the first year. The rules of our firm need to be understood. So, that's why it's a year end. But that really impacted me of like my view of how do we continue to curate our culture here at Conner and what matters?
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah. I know this isn't a Simon Sinek show, but he did, I just saw something from him yesterday. And he said this multiple times that, we say that leaders are responsible for the result, but leaders aren't responsible for the result, they're responsible for the people that are responsible for the people, that are responsible for the people, that are responsible for the result. Right?
BEN CONNER:
Yeah.
SKOT WALDRON:
So, and it's that shift in mindset that it's about the people, it's leading the people, because they're the ones that are going to shape your brand. They're the ones who are going to create the results. I always say this too, when I'm doing either brand strategy workshops or whatever, that I say, "You know what, most often and more often than not, your lowest paid employee is the one who's creating the biggest brand impression for your company or your organization as a whole." You think about this, when you go to the grocery store, it is the cash register person, the stock person that's in the aisle that is creating a feeling, whether I'm going to go back to that grocery store or not. It's not the CEO that is driving that. I don't even know who the CEO is at my local grocery store. It's just, I don't really care.
BEN CONNER:
The custodian, throw that person in there as well.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yes, exactly. It's like, what is that impact that they're having? The people, do they feel committed? Do they feel like they want to give back? Do they feel like they want to contribute? Because they feel valued, they feel understood and heard and that you care. So, I think that's a huge insight. I appreciate you kind of wrapping the topic around that. That's really good. Appreciate it. So, Life and Death Decision-making in the C-suite is always on the Amazon best-seller list, it's interesting. So, who's that for? Who would read that book? Who would want to pick it up?
BEN CONNER:
Sure. Definitely not the average person. It might be a boring read if you're not passionate about healthcare or health insurance. But the reality is, it's for anyone in the C-suite. It's for HR managers as well. It's for benefits managers within the organization. I would also maybe argue that it's for frontline managers also within an organization. Because the reality, all those individuals have a dramatic impact of any individual's navigation through healthcare. We talk to employers about this a lot is that your frontline leaders, they're actually the ones that have the most influence, just like what you talked about with the grocery store, they have the most influence in coaching and empathizing and helping an individual navigate the healthcare system, their time off, their emotions, anything around a healthcare event, because they have the relationship.
So, I would argue that those folks should read the book as well. As much as it can be scary, it can be extra work, there's a lot of emotions that come into getting involved in healthcare in a meaningful way. But when someone actually goes through a healthcare event, they want advocates, they want a support system. They want confidence that they're doing things the right way. That just doesn't exist in our current system. There's a really strong opportunity for a lot of stakeholders within an employer to really tell their workers that they care about them by how they address that issue.
SKOT WALDRON:
Very good. Very good. Is there some way to get in touch with you? People want to talk to you more about the book. Talk to you more about the insurance healthcare issue that we're having, or just connect with you. How do they do that?
BEN CONNER:
Yeah. I think the best way to connect with me is through LinkedIn. I'm on there quite a bit and I respond mostly, unless it's like those random sales requests that you get all the time. Those, I don't typically respond to. But conversation and that sort of thing, I love interacting and meeting new people and that sort of thing.
SKOT WALDRON:
Okay. So, don't send you a message saying, "I want to sell you something."
BEN CONNER:
Right. The initial connect and then like, "Hey, you don't know me, but I want to sell you something. And I know your problems." Those typically don't work with me.
SKOT WALDRON:
Good, good. Noted. Noted. I will not send you that. Okay, cool. Ben, super awesome conversation, man. Is this insurance conversation going to be interesting? How much can an insurance guy really bring to the table here? But, man, this is awesome. You've got these nuggets hidden behind this facade of just super chill, whatever. But you got some gold in there, man. People need it. So, thanks for being on the show.
BEN CONNER:
Appreciate it. Thanks for taking a chance on the insurance topic, and I've really appreciated getting to know you through this process. So, thanks for having me on.
SKOT WALDRON:
Ben told me before the interview that he feels that insurance and healthcare have been commoditized in our culture and our society. And the way he wants to tackle that is awesome. So, I hope you recognize that Ben is not just your normal everyday insurance guy, his philosophy of family, of you're part of the Conner family, things like that. We've heard that before as well. But one of the big differences here is that Ben lives it and Ben truly believes in the idea of what that is. The people side of what he does in his industry, it's really easy to get bogged down in the numbers and the benefits and the profit and the this and the percent here and that. It's like the numbers are a big part of that game, but putting the people in there and establishing a culture inside Conner, that they are... They create that idea of social psychological safety, a vulnerability of openness, of understanding, of trust. Yeah.
There's something there that's really, really important. I hope that you all gathered some insights from there. The fact that they go after conflict, that they seek out and pursue that conflict in order to resolve it is really, really interesting. We don't hear that a lot, the transparency aspect of business, but also internal culture. So, yeah, he says that transparency is a big problem with insurance, but it's also a big problem inside company culture. So, in order to alleviate some of that and to walk the talk, they don't even put their names at the top of their 360 reviews. I mean, they do put their names on the top of their 360 reviews in lieu of transparency. That is how problems get solved and that is their philosophy there. It may not work everywhere. It works for them. So, be intentional about what you're doing.
Super cool. Thanks, Ben. Good luck over there with you and the new book and the business and everything that's going. So, if y'all want to find out more about me, you can go to skotwaldron.com and see all the videos there. You can find out more about what I do about developing people, empowering people, empowering cultures and teams within organizations. You can also like, subscribe, comment on my YouTube channel. There's a lot of free information there, as well these interviews. And connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm there quite often. So, thanks a lot, everybody, for joining me on another episode of Unlocked.
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