Skot Waldron:
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Hi everybody, welcome to another episode of Unlocked, where we talk about unlocking the potential of people in order to unlock the potential of your organizations. Today, I've got Phil Buckley on the call. Phil is a change management professional. He's an award winning consultant, coach and author. He has a new book out called Change on the Run. And I say that at the beginning of this interview, because during the interview, I actually said the name of his old book Change with Confidence. The reason why I got confused is because Change with Confidence is the name of his company. So, you look up Change with Confidence on the web, you'll find his website along with free PDF, free documentation, and also his books about change and change management.
In this interview, we talk about what it means to embrace change and how do you lead change effectively? How do you use culture, how do you use the foundational basics of your organization to lead healthy change? Change is around us every day. It's going to be around us in the future and we need to learn to manage it well. Well, Phil knows a thing or two about that. So, let's get on with this interview. Thanks a lot. Here we go.
Phil, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you. I'm super excited about this topic. We haven't explored this yet, so I'm ready for this.
Phil Buckley:
Scott. Thank you so much. It's an honor to be on your show and can't wait to get into it.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah. Okay so, let's talk about this word change. Change is a scary word. Change is like, ooh, and some people are like, "Okay, embrace change." And there's a lot of the population though, that is... In personality analysis about 70%, 75% of the population is change adverse, they're hesitant. They like the don't mess with the column, leave the column where it is. It's fine where it is. So, talk to me about change and why that is so scary to people and how you help fix that.
PHIL BUCKLEY:
Yes. And I would say everyone's afraid with change. And you might have heard people go, "I love change. I eat chicken for breakfast. I thrive on change." And, typically, they're talking about past changes where they did better than what they had done before. So, they got a promotion, or it was better than what they thought it would be. But everyone's afraid, whether you're the CEO, or whether you're the head of a non-profit, or you're someone on the factory line that gets a new a new production schedule and we're all afraid of change. And that's why it is so scary.
And a lot of it is because it's the unknown. And that we tend to be distrusting of things that we don't know. And then, we like to stay in the column because we love the column. We created the column, we had success from that column. So, when I work with individuals and teams going in and we talk about that fear and if you can get down to realizing why you're afraid, I think, you can overcome it because then you start talking about what has to be true, where we would be less afraid, and it would be create room for us to try new things.
SKOT WALDRON:
Okay so, creating opportunity, thinking about what could be. So tell me through that exercise then. So you go in, you talk to organizations, you consult these organizations about okay so change, we're all a little bit fearful of the unknown. So, let's get back to what it is your core fear is. So, how do you, how do you do that? What's the process you run through?
PHIL BUCKLEY:
So, the process I run through is first of all, getting a read on the culture of the organization, because they can be very different. They could be command and control. They could be egalitarian. That's sort of the norms of how people operate and how work gets done, and the unwritten rules of how things go. And that's the first step. So, how do you work now? What is lauded as being really good behavior? What is shunned as being bad behavior? Because that's your current context. So, you can't go into an organization with your own assumptions and start saying, "Let's talk about fear," because some organizations, it's such a banned word that you couldn't talk about it. You could talk about concerns. You could talk about risk mitigation. You could talk whatever the term they choose to use, but that would be the first step.
And then, the second one is really getting a feel for the language that people use and how they talk about where they want to go in the organization. And I can test sort of the degrees of vulnerability. If the leader says, if she says, "Well, I'm not really quite sure where are we going to go. But I know I have the team that will get us there," which I think is really positive. Or, "Just follow me and we're going to take the hill," and that's another approach. And then once you get a good feel for how people communicate, what they see to be as good and bad, then to start talking about where people want to go.
And when you start seeing that... And one example I'll share with you, it was a financial institution, quite conservative, quite command and control. Everyone looked at the president when it was like, "So what do you think," and everyone would look at the president and say that interesting, very valuable. But they want it to become agile. And, at that time, about a year and a half ago, it was hot. "I want to be nimble. I want to be responsive to the market." But there's a cost to that too. Like you need to empower your teams. You have to be able to look at failures, and fail forward, and test and learn. You have to build people's skills and decision-making, you have to be better listeners.
So, as I was talking through it and saying, "Well, okay, you want to be nimble. What does that mean?" "Fast response. We want to get our fast capture of value," and all those buzz words that you can use. So, then I started telling the story of, "Oh, okay, great if that's what you want, here's how other organizations like yourselves that have done it. And this is how they did it." So, the second step is really to paint a picture of if you want to get the candy in the store, first of all, you have to mow the lawn and then you get the money and then you can go and buy the candy. So, what is it going to take to get there? And as I was talking through the examples and the leadership team was all kind of nodding their head and this was at a time where everyone was in the same room, non-verbals yeah, that's great.
And then, the president said, "Phil, Phil you're talking a lot about failing forward and making mistakes. And yeah, certainly, that's sort of the requirement so that you can actually adapt quite quickly so that you can get the best value and you make sure that your customers are satisfied with the right products." He said, "But we don't fail here, Phil. The last failure... Hal. Remember Hal everybody? Hal is no longer 'cause he failed.", And then, so the next step is really testing if people are willing to go on the journey that's required based on where they want to go. And if they have room for it, or even if they're willing to consider it. And, in this case, they weren't. So, my recommendation was for what you want, these are the things that are proven that you need to do. And some of your competitors are doing it. But if you don't want to go there, don't go on the journey because your employees will distrust you when you say you want something, and then you, all of a sudden, you come back to the way you are now.
And I thought it was great. The president was great. He said, "Absolutely, I don't want it. We're not going to do it. That's it. And we'll work on something else." So, it really is helping people paint the picture of the future, what's required to get there, and to see if they're willing to go on that journey. And then, the next step is, well, how do we have to change how we think? How do we have to change how we act? And how do we have to change how we behave that will enable people to get there.
SKOT WALDRON:
Wow, you do a lot of things.
PHIL BUCKLEY:
It's a fascinating world. And I know you do that with culture and branding too. But I think our role is really to facilitate the process because so often sometimes it's, and I know you've talked about this too, just hire the consultant and they'll do it for you. You can't because it is so cultural and you'll leaders have to lead first and they have to change first if they want their teams to follow them.
SKOT WALDRON:
So true. So, what are some of the biggest struggles right now within change? What's happening in change related, the world that you're combating all the time? Or that companies are combating all the time right now?
PHIL BUCKLEY:
The biggest change is uncertainty. And the pace of change is continuing to be faster and the amount of change coming on. So, typically, anybody's dealing with four to eight different changes at the same time. And it can be a lot easier to say, "We're gonna change one thing. We're gonna bring in a new system and that's it," and everyone rally around that. But people's environments now are they're changing so many things at the same time that are interconnected. And the biggest one, Scott, is the uncertainty of what good looks like. Because people have sheltered from home, they've gone to remote teams. They're thinking about coming back. There's a different mindset, I would say, of employees and there's no book, or there's no source that says, "We've gone through this before, and this is how to do it."
So, what I'm doing a lot with my clients now is to really talk about how do you address uncertainty and how do you build your skills? So, regardless of what you're facing, you have those communication tools to talk about it, to dissect it, to try and find out what information you need, what information you already have and how do you almost co-create sort of what we believe to be true so, then we can take action on it? It's not an easy thing to do too because, if you think of ourselves, we've built our careers on successes that are now stale dated, and no longer apply as a step-by-step approach to success where we're in the new territory now. And for those who take on that journey, I think it will be very exciting, and scary, and fearful. But the ones that don't, I think, will find that they'll atrophy, they'll become less relevant. And what they might do is fall into the rabbit hole of, "We just have to work harder on processes that aren't working to get better results," which lead to burnout, exhaustion, flight of talent and poor results.
SKOT WALDRON:
So, in that light, thinking about what's coming and things that are forced upon us versus things that we initiate ourselves. Let's talk about COVID then, what kind of change did that bring about? I think, obviously, we know the remote working change. But are there any others besides that? Or is that the biggest one that you've been working on recently? And, for the future, how is that going to affect how we do things?
PHIL BUCKLEY:
Yes, well, that was the focal point that I think everyone has in common. Everyone has a story of their first lockdown, or whether they had a vaccine, or how the team had to manage, which is a really good foundation for discussing how we move forward. But I think there's so much more that we've realized from that. And I remember I was an advisor on almost like a research assignment. 2020 March, when people were going to their homes working, getting set up on Zoom. And they're trying to figure out, well, what's working, what's not? And, generally, empathy for people and focus on the employee was working really, really well.
Fast forward 18 months now, and I think what we know to be true is that the organizations that really got down to basics about really understanding the purpose, or their mission, whatever it is that was their foundation, their true values, and the ones that elevated those values to deal with whatever was happening. So, it could be working from home, it could be safety concerns for people who are working in warehouses, whatever it was. But it's almost, if they held up the coat of arms of their organization of what they felt to be true and then they held that up as they were making decisions, they tended to be very successful. And the employees actually tended to respond really well. And now they're more engaged.
And typically what people would do with their shield is they would co-create what they were doing. They would check in with their people, what's working, what's not? So, now, what I'm finding as we move forward and now it's sort of the post COVID, what happens when we kind of leave our homes, and we go back to work, whatever that is for us, it's the understanding of the power of what worked in the past, but to use it in a different way to challenge the future and define it. So, that is the biggest one. And then also, I think, there's a greater realization that people change one person at a time. Everyone has different circumstances, but if we went five years back it would be there's one way to be successful and everyone's treated the same. And it's a broad brush approach of this is how we're going to change. And there's a higher sensitivity now that that doesn't work, that we really have to understand where people are before and go there before we can move them forward. And how to do that is greater communication, two-way, to it successful.
SKOT WALDRON:
That's so good. So, I love about your getting back to basics thing. And I talk about this as well is, it's those times of stress, those times of difficulty that are going to reveal the character and the true brand of that organization. The reputation that's going to be carried on forever. And what I'm going to say about that company, that leader, that team, that employee, when I leave and walk away, because that's what I define brand as that thing of that people say when you're not around.
So, going back to the basics of our values, our mission holding up that coat of arms saying, "Hey guys, we have been rocked, this is changing the way we have to think about business. Are we still true to this? Remember, this is who we are. This is how we're going to conduct business. These are the guard rails we're going to use." You're saying that reinforcement of those foundational, what I call, a brand foundation is helping us move forward in a healthy way?
PHIL BUCKLEY:
Yes it does. And I would even say some organizations, and one in particular I'm working with now, they want to ask that question with all employees. So, they want to test their values based on the utility they got over the last 18 months. And my guess, but we'll see, is that one won't apply anymore. Because it was more externally focused and internally focused, and that act of co-creation and really having the question, "Does our shield still hold true, or should we take one of the corners and should we actually change that for another value?"
Or what I'm finding, and it's so fascinating, Scott, do we have too many values? It's almost like if you had 50 brand attributes and you go, "Well we have 50, do we really have any?" And same thing is for values, that over acceleration of we have 10 core values, or the analogy of we have 67 prioritized projects that we'll make sure we win. And it's like, "67? That's not prioritization, that's broad brush approach of trying everything." And something I learned years ago, and it really fundamentally changed my views about values. And I worked for the Cadbury organization and it would be Cadbury Adams in the States or Dr. Pepper, 7 Up in Dallas. And the culture was very values focused and they're going through a cultural change.
And, at that time, I was running change for North America. And it was really focusing on three core values and behaviors. One was accountability. One was assertiveness, more about taking charge and making sure that we're doing the right thing for all of our stakeholders. And then, the last one was being on are we going to be true to ourselves? Are we going to truly live that value? And the president when he came to our local office had talked about how important these were. And I asked a question from the crowd and I said, "Well, why do you think that individuals have embraced the company values and the company behaviors?" And it was so true right across the world, 180 countries everyone bought in. And he started out by saying, Scott, he looked up in the sky and he's behind his podium, and he said, "Accountable. Accountable is like a personal promise. It's something that you do and that you actually commit to."
And he defined the three based on his lens of his own values. And then, he said, "Phil, thank you for your question, the reason why people have embraced the company values is that they're their values too." And I've never forgotten that. And when you do get a value-led, value-based company going, people are looking through it and saying, "I get accountability. I get ethics." And then, when you can make that connection, like a lot of companies did through COVID, then it's really continuing on with that and reminding people that the shield of our company is your shield, and that you have that individual actualization of what we believe to be true. And when you have that, I think, you have something really, really powerful.
SKOT WALDRON:
Gosh, that's so good.
I always talk about that principle as well about people want to buy from, do business with, work for people that believe what they believe. There's such a unity there. There's such a connection. When I believe what you believe I'm going to pour into you. And we're going to have hard times and, "Oh, I get it, you've had to do some layoffs. And oh, I get it, maybe I'm going to have to work a little extra this weekend. But I'm willing to do that because I believe in what you believe. And I believe that we're going to make this thing better." And that's so important to make sure that it's not just you leading the culture, but it's the culture leading the culture. And having that all blend together.
So, when we talk about culture and how that helps, how do you, I don't know, when you go into organizations and talk about what role does culture play in helping people transition?
PHIL BUCKLEY:
Yes. And it's so foundational to any type of change or any type of transition. And the reason why and my definition is it is the norms and it's the unwritten rules of how people interact, because everything's about relationship. And it's how people get work done. So, there's certain ways that are acceptable. And it could be a company that says, "You never contradict someone more senior than you are in a open meeting." Or another that says, "We're all leaders. And if you have the best answer, one of the [inaudible 00:21:00], if you have the best answer, you owe it to all of us to put up your hand and share it because you could be right. And you're a leader as well as I am, and we'll have a conversation." So, whatever the culture is, and I think it's so important is it's not judgmental. It's just whatever it is.
And then, you break it down to three things. Mindset, how do I think, what are my attitudes? Then it's actions or routines. That's sort of like, how do we actually get things done? How do we share information, for example? Do we share information? And then, the third one, which I think is the most important is how do we behave with each other? Scott, if we disagree on something, are we going to talk about it, and try and resolve it? Or I'm going to go to my boss and escalate it and say that you're not doing things? Or if we still talk about it and we can't agree on something, will we agree that we'll both come, and talk about it, and figure out what's best for the organization? Or will I talk behind your back?
And so if you look at those in three things and then say, "Okay, well, what has to be true?" There was one company out of New Jersey and their sales team was so happy when they were number two, they were a solid number two and that's a mindset that we don't have to win. We don't have to Excel, but we just can't be number three. And how they evaluated success is the gap between the number three player in the market and the number two player. And that's a sales example, but it could very well be a not-for-profit and what they're trying to achieve as well. So, how do they need to think differently to get the results they're looking for? Now, how do they interact and how they share information is a big one too, because if it's an organization that rewards individualism, it's all about a competitive mindset. And you're not going to share anything that's going to take it away from you.
And then, the last one is behavior and it's such an important piece of it. How do we interact? Are we respectful? Are we thinking about how I can help you and me at the same time or, conversely? And then, you define what those three are, and then you set that transition plan from where we are now to where we need to go. So, that's sort of the nutshell approach of transitions. It's those three and all three have to work. You can't do one in isolation. You have to hit all three from my experience.
SKOT WALDRON:
So, do you talk about that in your book? Let's talk about your new book. I can't believe you haven't even mentioned that yet. Holy moly. You got a new book coming out. Do you address that in this new book? I mean, the new book's called Change with Confidence and are you addressing these things in that book?
PHIL BUCKLEY:
Yes, I do. And the book I wrote was for the people that are thrown into change, so their organization is changing. Either they have been given a role on a project, "Hey, Scott, we're going to [inaudible 00:23:59] you for a year and a half, 'cause we're bringing in a large initiative or a large systems implementation." Or you're representing marketing and you just want to make sure your needs are met. Or you're just being impacted by it. But you typically don't have the experience of change management, of how it works, and how it doesn't work. So, my premise is, if you don't have a lot of time to learn, the best strategy when you're faced with something that gets in your way, maybe it's a task you need to do that you've never done before, or it's a hiccup. You have someone who's obstructing your progress because they don't want to leave the column that they created. If you apply the 80/20 rule to that, because you don't have time to learn, if you do that you'll be far better off.
So, what's the one action you could take when you're faced with a leader who's going off script? Or you need to earn trust with a new team that you've been put on and nobody knows who you are? Or how to create a change plan? Whatever it is. And I've developed the 44 of the key challenges when people are going through change and I give them the 80/20, just do this. There's no perfection in change, but the 80 is pretty good. And then, you can move on to your next challenge.
SKOT WALDRON:
And, by the way, you're giving away those. I went and downloaded them already, because that was awesome. Because I saw that you were giving away that free offer. So, people can go and download these on your website. You have a PDF, it is completely free.
PHIL BUCKLEY:
Absolutely.
SKOT WALDRON:
People can download those exercises. They're fantastic, I love them.
PHIL BUCKLEY:
Thank you.
SKOT WALDRON:
Describe one of them for us, so people can get a taste.
PHIL BUCKLEY:
Resistance is common through all change as we've talked about because people are letting go tried and true behaviors and things that have worked really well for them in the past. And now they've got to do things very, very differently. So, it's only natural that people are going to resist new ways that are uncomfortable for ways that they've loved for years. So, it's a really simple chart and before you begin is really project, why would people resist? Are their titles changing? Are they reporting to new people? Do they have to learn new skills? What would I see if I cannot actually see that that resistance is happening? So, for example, there's training on the new system, Phil doesn't show up, half of marketing doesn't show up. That's a pretty good indication that there's some resistance there. Or water cooler talk, or whatever.
And then what would you do to actually mitigate that? And then, it's a three column simple chart, but if you do it before you actually get into it and, all of a sudden, oh my goodness the Los Angeles team is refusing to participate. And then, you go to this simple chart and say, "Well, how do you know?" "Well, this is what I saw that the leader said something off script, and she's going completely against the new way of doing things." But if you map that out in advance, then instead of saying, "Oh, what should I do," and getting caught up in the fight, flight or freeze, "This is it, I've already mapped it out. I've got a call with her in 10 minutes and I'm going right to the source." So, that's an example of a really, really quick tool to help your thinking so that you can be your best when things get in the way, instead of being your worst and really being caught in that, "Oh my goodness, the world is over."
SKOT WALDRON:
So you're talking about being proactive, not reactive.
PHIL BUCKLEY:
Absolutely. And that's such a big lesson and it's so hard to do too Scott because things that happen that you don't anticipate are always going to throw you off. And I think that goes back to our point about, we are in an uncertain world, it's always going to be uncertain, but what we can control is how we respond. So, when I'm faced with uncertainty, if I go to that one thing, that's going to give me the best result instead of freaking out and going, "Oh my goodness, what am I gonna to do," I'll be further ahead. And I'll be able to expediently get over it some way.
And what I find too, Scott, which is sort of magical in change, if you're faced with a challenge and you take an action and, again, it might not be the best action, but it's a fairly good action, psychologically you calm down because you're doing something versus sitting back and worrying about it. And then, the worry stops. And then, you start thinking about the future, so you're more confident, you have more grace under pressure, you look like a leader and people actually treat you as a leader. And this is from personal experience, I worried and thought about something, and things only get worse if you don't jump in and address them and figure out what the right answer is.
SKOT WALDRON:
Gosh, that's so good. Thank you for that. Thank you for supplying us for free with those tools. I think they're great. I mean, obviously, not every one of them will apply to every single person, every situation. But you take the gold, and you run with it because there's some impactful stuff in there that you've really provided us with. So, where can people get ahold of your book?
PHIL BUCKLEY:
People can get ahold at any bookseller, which is great. So, right across the board from independents to Amazon, to your Barnes & Noble, it's available everywhere. And it's in three formats, you get the print format, you get the e-version, and also you get the audio book, which I love doing because you can put more stories in and paint better pictures when you have a bit more time to say, "Hey, this is what happened to me, what do you think?" But thank you for the opportunity to share that.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah, that's very cool. And people, if they want to get in touch with you, how do people get in touch with you, if they want to hire you to come in and help them with change?
PHIL BUCKLEY:
There's two ways, Scott, the first one is changewithconfidence.com is my website. So, you can see there's lots of free materials there and you can see case studies of what we do. But I'd love it, if you could connect on LinkedIn because it's all about conversations, it's all about networking and helping each other through change. So, I'd love to start a conversation with your listeners and viewers, if you're interested, that would be great.
SKOT WALDRON:
You're a powerhouse, Phil, this has been awesome. You've got a lot of wisdom, especially in this change space. And we're changing all the time, so you will probably never go out of business. So, congratulations for picking a good industry.
PHIL BUCKLEY:
Thank you, Scott. It's always an adventure, but if you are in change the worst thing you can ever do is think you have all the answers because everything is uncertain. It's that humble nature of saying, "What might be true," instead of saying, "I've seen this one before." So, that's a constant struggle, but it's a worthy one to do as well. Thank you so much for having me on your show. It's been a delight. Thank you.
SKOT WALDRON:
So, it sounds, to me, like the idea behind change is all about clarity. It's all about alignment. It's all about inclusiveness and understanding one another. It's about leading people how they need to be led and helping them feel like they're part of the process together. One person leading change is not going to change very much. We need to do this as an entire organization, as a group unified in the vision that we see for the future.
The change equation that I run through with a lot of my clients. And we didn't talk about this in the interview, but I believe Phil is right there with me. We talk about dissatisfaction, labeling your dissatisfaction times the vision for the future, times clear next steps has to be greater than resistance. So, we talked about resistance in this episode, identifying resistance. You got to know what you're trying to overcome first, before you can overcome it. Before you can develop a plan to recognize what needs to be overcome. So important. Thank you for clarifying that point in this interview, Phil, I appreciate you. Go to his website, download those 44 exercises, they are free. I've done it, you should do it. Pick out the ones that work for you. They're super, super insightful, simple, simple, simple. I love it.
If you all want to find out more about me, go to scottwaldron.com, I've got a bunch of videos there, I got some free resources for you there. If you would like to follow me on, please do. I'd love to connect with you there. And YouTube channel, like, subscribe, comment, do all that stuff. I've got some free lessons and tools on there for you about company culture and leadership, and developing a leadership brand worth following. So, thank you for being here on another episode of Unlocked. And I will see you next time.
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