Unlocking Generous Leadership With Joe Davis

Skot Waldron (02:43.304)
Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Unlocked, where we talk about unlocking the potential of you, the people you work with, and the people you do life with. At the time of this recording, I’m offering all of you, yes, my lovely listeners, a free 15 minute communication coaching call. You come with some kind of communication problem, and I give you a solution. My calendar link is in the show notes so check that out.

Joe Davis is at a point in his career when he is just willing to give and that’s what he did here today with me, and I’m really excited for you to hear this because it’s not as much of a tactical I guess episode as it is more me trying to draw out the wisdom and the gold from somebody who has lived a life of consulting and building and talking and strategizing and listening. And we’ll talk about that here in a bit. And I’m just really grateful, very pleasant, very, very easy to talk to – Joe is that kind of person.

Let me read a little bit of his bio here. Joe served as MD and Senior Partner at BCG. In The Generous Leader, and that’s his book that we’re gonna talk about a little bit. Joe shares a performance review. He was told he was not the best at problem-solving solo; but with others, he could solve any challenge. His manager identified his key strength which was a person who could connect. Joe spent 37 years with BCG, co-founded the Washington DC office, led office systems, started BCG’s North America Public Sector business, led BCG North America, founded and chaired BCG’s Center for Inclusion and Equity. Joe earned his BA from Whitman College, MBA from HBS. Joe is currently serving his second term as Whitman’s Board Chair. Joe has been married to Sarah for over 40 years, has four children, eight grandchildren, with number nine on the way. And, he gets to spend a ton of time with him. He told me, which is so fun. So I’m glad for Joe. Um, all right. So here we go. Y ‘all, I hope y ‘all enjoy this interview. I know I did. It was really, really good. Thanks everybody.

Joe, welcome to the show. I didn’t rhyme on purpose, it just happened that way.

Joe Davis (02:48.206)
Well, thank you Skot. It’s not trying to think of a rhyme back it but it’s great to be here. Let me just keep it simple

Skot Waldron (02:51.934)
Yeah. Yeah. There you go. There you go. well, yeah, it’s good. It’s good to meet with you. And there’s always, I’m always excited to talk to people at your stage of life and career because you you’ve been there. You’ve done that. You have so much to share. And before the show, we were talking about, Arthur Brooks book from strength to strength and just that idea. And I was actually at a conference yesterday and I was talking, on multi-generational workforce development.

This conference and I was speaking and I was talking about you know the this shift from fluid intelligence to crystallized intelligence right and that whole concept. What did you think about when you were reading about that in that book?

Joe Davis (03:31.246)
That’s it.

Well, let me just say I’m 67, 35 plus years of BCG, eight grandchildren. So I am on that other stage. Although I feel quite young, just like that book would point out. And it makes you think a lot because you’re sitting there go, go, go. And I’m not arguing don’t be go, go, go in your 30s, 40s, and 50s. However, you do think, ah, you actually have wisdom or crystallized intelligence that’s different and actually is still quite valued.

When I’ve been speaking with some of my old colleagues and saying, I’m here. If anyone wants to coach, I’m surprised the number of people, hey, I’ll be happy to speak with you, know, half hour, an hour a month. So I actually think that’s quite a, you know, quite rational thinking about it. And actually if you’re like me, my stage in life, you know, it gives you, I shouldn’t say gives you hope, but things, okay, there is another whole chapter here that one can deliver on.

That sounds we’re not here to talk all about someone in the last in the last legs but but I can I could see it now if you asked me to read that when I was 35 I wouldn’t know what you’re talking about you know I mean intellectually get it but I wouldn’t know what you’re

Skot Waldron (04:47.976)
Right. And I think that that’s, that’s why I bring it up so often is because, know, when we’re in that fluid intelligence stage of our lives, we’re just kind of like, you just think you’ll be there forever. But it’s not until you actually hit the down slope of the fluid intelligence and get up into the crystal, you know, that realm where you start to like mourn yourself a little bit and mourn your career and mourn the fact that you’re not as good or as fast or as intelligent as you were, or not necessarily intelligent, but like, you know, all those things like.

Joe Davis (04:58.85)
Yes. Bye.

Skot Waldron (05:16.36)
You start mourning it instead of embracing this stage and where you are.

Joe Davis (05:20.174)
But yeah, hopefully you don’t mourn it. A lot of people, don’t think, I mean, I don’t think you even notice it until sometimes, oh my God, I haven’t written the book on that stage in life. But I a lot of people don’t even feel it. And next thing they know is like, wait a minute, what happened to what I was doing? I’m not doing it anymore. You the other thing I’ll say there as we talk about the early stages, you the other thing I thought was interesting, and it’s gonna sound a little weird, you know, what did you, what’s at the end of it? You know, what is the material goods or things that are about,

Skot Waldron (05:33.904)
Exactly, Yeah.

Joe Davis (05:49.326)
hard-eyed and practical things that are left and what is someone going to say at your eulogy? And you don’t want to talk about that, but that was in this book. said, actually you should be thinking about, which is you call legacy too. You should be thinking about what are people going to be saying about me one day, you know, and that they’re not going to say he has a fancy house. They ain’t going to give a crap. I mean, now I’m going to say what everybody knows. They’re not going to say he had a nice car, you know, if he has great kids, he or she, they’ll comment on that. They’ll comment on, but they probably will comment on what they remember you did for them somewhere along the way. Which is worth thinking about even if you’re 30. I believe.

Skot Waldron (06:23.666)
That is, it is, I’ll do an exercise with, with leaders or teams or whatnot. And I, I did this more as, with teams early on as a brand strategist working with teams in their, their community, understanding what their brand was, what their value was, and, you know, writing the teams eulogy, like, what if you weren’t around anymore? What would, what would the world be missing out on? If you weren’t there anymore, what would they say about you? If you weren’t here anymore? Like if your whole team died, like, you know, not, not like personally, but like if the team went away.

Joe Davis (06:41.701)
That… Yeah, the thing disappeared.

Skot Waldron (06:54.202)
He goes away. Right. what would they say? But now I, I do, I do cater that towards leaders. and say, you know what, what would, what would we be missing yet? So you’re great at spreadsheets. So you’re good at building a process, right? Like, you know, that’s a thing, but what’s the impact you’re going to have on people long-term and are they going to talk about you 20 years later as, man, Joe was like, Joe was that person that like totally poured into me that he was pushed me hard, but he was also there to like support me and build me up. Or was it going to be like Joe was? Yeah, I remember that guy. You know, you know, it’s it’s kind of funny to think about sometimes.

Joe Davis (07:30.668)
I got.

Well, it’s funny the way you said that I have a, I had a mentor and now kind of friend who was, was that guy in the sense that he poured into you, but he poured into you hard. And a lot of people like, Oh my God, I’m just, but he really wanted you to be better. And it was sometimes tough or always tough, but you don’t. I remember a lot of people grumpy about it. Oh, this Steve was his name. But they talked about him forever because he cared about everything improving, including all the people as part of it, even if it was, you know, tough love along the way, if you want to call it that. it is what, yeah, people will talk about what you did for them.

Skot Waldron (08:12.318)
That’s right. Long way into the future. Long way.

Joe Davis (08:20.342)
Yeah, right. We got into a funny place here.

Skot Waldron (08:23.516)
Yeah, we know. Hey, let’s let’s pivot a little bit because, I want to tie it in to this idea of generosity, of cause you wrote the book of generous leader and, it’s been out for a year now. that, that, you know, the recording of this, this show, but I, I want to get your take on that. Do you, do you think it’s easier to be generous when we’re talking about stages of life? Do you think it’s easier to be generous at a later stage of your career that it is an earlier stage of your career?

Joe Davis (08:54.37)
Yeah, well, so let me first, let me just define what I mean by generous leadership, which it’s just what we’ve been talking about. actually think someone really focuses on being a generous leader. They are giving of themselves freely without expectation of personal gain. So others develop, grow and thrive at their full potential. Exactly what you and I just said. And the thing that’s so, but now I will also make sure of you are very clear. It isn’t just being nice. I mean, as a leader, you have to get results.

If you don’t get results, you ain’t gonna have the job anymore. Either you’re gonna lose the job you had, you’re not gonna get promoted into one, or you won’t get promoted up. So this is still about delivering. It’s just that it understands you deliver through your people. Now to your question, it’s very interesting, because I talked to bunch of people for the book, less senior, more senior. And yes, it’s easier as you get more senior, but I don’t know if it is because of seniority. It is because you have no choice. I if you’re a new manager, 30 years old, three people working for you, and they screw up, you probably can do the work yourself overnight, a couple of nights, you you have to pull it all nighter and deliver. Once you have 20 people, you can’t do that anymore. Now it’s all about those people, you know, hitting on full cylinders. And then to your point, when you are very senior, you’re running a company, which not many of us fortunate, you know, get to do that. But then, you know, you can’t do anything with all those hundred thousand people. If it’s a big, other than set direction, inspire, motivate, I mean, you do a lot of external stuff.

So I think it’s, I don’t know that it’s necessarily easier. I don’t agree with that. I think it’s just, you realize you have no choice other than to grow through your, to help your people grow. And maybe it’s easier in your own head because you’re more mature, you have that understanding. But I don’t see any reason why a 30 year old can’t think, okay, my job is to take my five people that work with me on my team and make them damn good. A 30 year old can do that. There’s nothing that’s not.

Skot Waldron (10:50.878)
They know a hundred percent again. No, I, agree too. I I’m just, I was just curious. I didn’t even think about it right until I started talking to you and thinking about, know, I, I’m my perspective and maybe this is just me. So let me just talk about me. Right. But I feel like this happens with a lot of people earlier on in our career, especially when you come right out of college and you’re in there, those first building years of your, your career, it’s all about my job, my pay.

Joe Davis (10:52.748)
We love you.

Skot Waldron (11:20.112)
my benefits, my work, the thing that I’m doing, my awards, my things so that we can, I can start building credibility. I can start building my resume to be something bigger. Like I don’t expect to get paid a ton of money. Well, maybe young generations do now, but I don’t expect to get paid a ton of money right out of school, right? I know I have to work for it. I know I have to grind. I know I have to do my thing. And so it’s really self-centered type.

Joe Davis (11:25.282)
Yeah, I promote.

Skot Waldron (11:50.482)
focus at the beginning and I’m not gonna, I’m just gonna say it’s kind of the way it is. Like we’re just out of school, we need a job, we need to build a family, we need to build an established thing. And then when you get later on in life, maybe you don’t need, you’re not focused so much on that because you have the stuff for the most part. And so I’m just wondering if it’s easier to.

Joe Davis (11:56.974)
So, well, I could even, yeah, I agree with you, but I even might even think if you just think in the context of a person who wants to grow into leadership and whatever organization they’re in, when they first start there, people do look at them and how they delivered. They don’t look at how the people all around them, unless they were so toxic and then you get fired, but they do. It is all around. What did you do? How did you deliver? What’s your development? Are you growing? You’re right. The trick is, okay, now we promote you and then your brain’s got to start shifting.

I’ll tell you a story. I was my first job out of college, was procter and gamble sales rep and got promoted to sales manager. was 24 or 25 years old. can’t remember. I had sales reps, career sales reps. One was 42, 36. You I thought they were ancient. They weren’t, but I thought they were. I would ride with them every two weeks and never give any feedback. One because I still, one I was scared. It was all about me. I didn’t know who I was to tell them what to do. You blah, blah, blah. And I had a very well, wonderful lesson. was doing the year in review for this one guy, Rich, and I wrote down everything he needed to do that I’d seen over the year. And I launched in with a list and 90 seconds in he says, what the blank, Joe, you ride with me every two weeks and you’ve never said any of this. What the heck have you been doing? You know, it was very eye opening to me because it was all about me.

And in his mind, wait, buddy, you’re now the manager. It’s about you helping me get better. Even if you’re 24 and I’m 32 or 42. Now, you know, we could all be so lucky to have, and then when I walked out of that room, my boss said, don’t you dare ever write a review or anything written on that piece of paper. They haven’t seen, seen or heard from you somewhere over the course of the year. It was a very powerful lesson at 25 years old, but it’s just in the end comes to your point for a while. was all about how I delivered and no one really told me, no, no, no, no, Joe, you don’t get any more. Now it’s about how they deliver because you’re managing them and this team’s got to deliver. So all of that to say I agree with you, but somewhere you all have to make the shift if you really want to be a productive leader.

Skot Waldron (14:12.082)
Yeah. I think that’s really good. you, you lay out, you know, the, the book centers around this idea of vulnerability and being open and, and whatnot. when did you stumble upon that idea? Cause you’re just reflecting back on your story. It was hard for you to be vulnerable as a young, young leader, imposter syndrome, whatever was happening at that point in time.

Joe Davis (14:39.064)
Yeah, right, right, right.

Skot Waldron (14:40.934)
When, when did that dawn on you? as far as something that you feel is critical for leadership or just people in general.

Joe Davis (14:48.994)
Well, I mean, this all I can sort of answer that because but it’s all evolution, right? Nothing just there wasn’t. But when I look back, I can kind of reflect on I do remember when I finally was running, not finally, when I was leading the Washington, D.C. office for BCG. So I was probably 40. And, you know, I was quite open and emotional up in front when I had a staff meeting. had staff meetings once. And the reinforcement, I mean, I might even if something was really intensely emotional, I would tear up. I’m a tear up kind of guy. But the positive reinforcement was amazing. People come in, it’s so good, you’re so honest. It’s so good, you’re so open. My God, it’s freeing for the… There’s this reinforcement that that was a positive thing, not like, what’s the hell wrong with you? And they knew, I mean, still let the people go that needed to let go. They weren’t gonna cut it. We grew the business. The job was to grow the business, all that.

But and so that’s when I started to you know started to notice ah when you’re being more honest And then I’m also pretty blunt and direct guy Which you know, especially in feedback which you could also say is a vulnerability a lot of people don’t want to give blunt feedback They don’t want to be you know, like criticize that they were harsh and all that But there people would give me thank you so much for telling me directly I see what I need to do as opposed to this mushy feedback, you know, I got positive reinforcement

Now, if you’ll let me, you indulge me for one minute, the thing that’s interesting is I actually, as I reflected back on the question you asked over just, even while I writing that doc book, I cried through my wedding vows when I was 23. I was petrified. What guy cried? 23-year-old guy. My wife was Claire Isabelle. We’ve been married 43 years now. But it was funny, I didn’t realize it, but afterwards people came, oh, that was such a wonderful ceremony.

The emotion in the room and the love I could feel. And I didn’t, I didn’t register in my mind that my crying made that difference. And then my mom died when I was 30. You can imagine what happened in the service. I cried this time. I didn’t get a word out. And the, the priest said, well, Joe, that’s okay for touting tears of the fountains of love. And the same reinforcement came, you know? So I didn’t know that those moments at that, but I do believe that those things were growing for me. The understanding that sharing who you are actually inspires and motivates people. And then as I just said, as I got more into business and actually, you know, I get feedback, hey, thank you for being honest, direct and showing your feelings. And that’s when I started to really click. Now, the good news is I never used it, because you can also just turn it off and on when you need, you know, it can become a cynical thing, but that’s not the nature of someone who really is, you know, really cares.

Skot Waldron (17:33.022)
Well, my goal is to get you to cry on this show. I’m just kidding. We don’t do that too much on this show.

Joe Davis (17:35.15)
That would be really hard. would be really hard. No, I also got coaching. Don’t cry quite so much, know, figure out how this is go.

Skot Waldron (17:45.758)
Your coach was telling you to not cry so much? Well, I was, I totally feel you, man, because I was, you know, sitting there with my wife and I was sobbing. I couldn’t, I don’t know what’s going on. I couldn’t like, you know, I couldn’t hold it together. And she’s like looking at me all weird. She’s like, dude, are you all right? You know, and it’s just like, I don’t know what’s going on with me. can’t like stop. Yo, I don’t cry that often, but when I do, it’s like, it was.

Joe Davis (18:00.01)
That’s you’re ready.

Skot Waldron (18:13.406)
the birth of both of my kids and then my wedding. And my wife, all those times, right? Of course, during the birth, she’s like, ah, this is horrible. Like, what are you, and then you’re just crying over, you know, so it’s just like, I totally feel you, man.

Joe Davis (18:22.606)
You’re right, what are you doing?

I bet you a million dollars. She appreciates that so much.

Skot Waldron (18:30.748)
she probably does. probably does. I want to, I want to talk about this idea though, of this generous idea, cause you go through seven kind of principles in here. in the book, you talk about generous communication, generous listening, generous inclusion, the generous ally, generous development, generous moments, and then this give up the mask idea, which talks about vulnerability and authenticity.

What’s your favorite one? I want to know like which one’s your favorite.

Joe Davis (19:02.092)
Yeah, my, I have three favorites, but I will go and I will pick. I just think the generous listening is my favorite because it is so essential to humanity. You can look at our country right now. It’s essential to leaders, essential to each other, you know, and that really, by that, mean, listening to what the other person is saying and what’s in their head and why are they saying what they’re saying? Where are they coming from? What’s their lived experience? We want to use that word.

Skot Waldron (19:05.01)
Okay.

Joe Davis (19:29.41)
You know, and trying to understand that really and putting it together what you think you know and not presuming, know it all. Now, a lot is driven by the consulting world. You’re trying to help motivate and move clients. And if you don’t know what’s in their head, obviously, I mean, you can arrogantly think you have the right answer, but it’s not going to move anybody to behave differently if you don’t understand where they’re coming from. So I just think this whole concept of really listening to learn, listening to where what does the other person know that I don’t know.

When I put the two together, how can we get to a better place? And I just think that is my favorite. It’s critical in business. I mean, if we think about life, while there’s many of us that don’t agree with each other, whichever side of whatever you’re on, if we at least try to understand why does this person think that so adamantly and I think this so adamantly. I mean, we have rational reasons for it. We may think we’re both crazy, but at least listen to the other side and then choose to engage in something. We can’t even get that.

So I think that’s critical and very important. Now I get a couple of that with this vulnerability because you can’t be a good listener if you’re not humble enough to understand, I don’t know everything. And if you don’t know everything, then you have to be a little bit vulnerable if you think you’ve got all the answers. So I think that when we could talk longer about that, but I just think this whole idea of vulnerability as it ties to listening. And then if you want to be a leader, I you probably had leaders who were thought they were perfect, behave perfectly, but you knew damn well they weren’t.

So immediately it’s like, what’s going on with this person? They can’t be that perfect. Or you figure you couldn’t match them. Or more importantly, like if they’re pretending they’re that perfect, what are they hiding? You know, it’s just all sudden you aren’t really connecting. And then the last thing, when I say three, just small acts, big impact. They’re so simple and easy. mean, this is, you know, remember the star on your piece of paper or your homework when you’re in kindergarten. That was a big bloody deal. It meant nothing to anybody except to you. It meant a lot because you tried.

And I just, you you have any stories you heard where a boss sends an email to the person who does a hell of a job, maybe copying their boss or copying the team. And you feel so good. You feel so good. I was talking to a person the other day who said he got feedback in his company every single year and all they got was, Hey, I a fine job. Here’s your bonus. Three years in a row. No one ever told him anything. You’re so frustrating. Finally said, I need a, you know, a career advisor who will give me feedback.

And then the fourth year, he’s like, I feel bad. He’s so happy. So he got good bonuses. That didn’t mean anything to him. He was waiting for someone to say, performing well here, you’re not performing well there. So this whole simple concept of small acts, big impact, recognizing somebody. I’ll tell one story, I may. Scott Kirby, CEO of United, after George Floyd murder, he called, well, his wife was on a plane. His wife was on a plane. And the captain came out and said,

Oh, Mrs. Kirby, I’m so excited to see you. I love your husband. You know, as our CEO. She said, well, what do you mean? She said, well, when, after the George Floyd murder, he called and she’s, this was a black female captain. He called every captain of color at United and just checked in and he didn’t have advice for us. didn’t, he just wanted to check in and see how we’re doing and let it let us know that United and here here. That’s maybe a little bit bigger than the small act, but it was pretty small. You know, just he had to have someone organize, find them all again and phone numbers. Just a couple minute call and this woman was devoted to United forever for that simple call. And so, you know, I just think this, you know, also ties kind of what I skim into your book, you know, these do these small things every all the time and they can add up to great, you know, to very positive outcomes.

Skot Waldron (23:10.248)
I always say it’s the millions little micro moments that are going to define your brand over time. It’s generally not the big momentous occasions, right? It’s just the little acts over time that are going to build or destroy that brand over time.

Joe Davis (23:26.306)
Yeah, know, essentially, I think you’re right. Let me say that. If I look back over years of me or colleagues, yeah, I don’t remember the guys that got elected CEO BCG or my yes friends. don’t think of them as, if I think very fondly, it’s not the CEO role. It’s the stuff they did up to getting it and while they’re in the role. And that’s what mattered.

Skot Waldron (23:50.992)
It is, you spoke for a minute about this idea of humility and the context of vulnerability. I’ve never thought about those. Together. mean, you know, like, so keep talking to me about that. this wire. When did you make, how, how’s that connected in your brain?

Joe Davis (24:07.054)
Yeah, yeah, it was.

No other attention. Well.

No, you’re right. Because people think vulnerability, they think, you’re going to show your weaknesses. You’re going to say last night I had a terrible night because my kids were, you know, that’s, I’ll tell you, I asked a friend, when, when, what are your vulnerable moments? He said, well, Joe, I hate to admit I don’t know something. And he was a leader at BCG. He said, if I’m working with a team and I can tell they’re getting stuck and I don’t know the answer either, if they turn to me, I will leave the room before I will say, I don’t know because he didn’t want to show the vulnerability that he didn’t know everything in front of the team. And well, of course, that’s utter waste of time, you know, the team stuck. So he said, one day I realized this is just silly. So I stayed in the room and said, well, you know, everybody, I don’t know either. And he said, it was unbelievable. Like this burst event. Oh, you don’t know? We don’t know. It’s awesome. The creative juices were unlocked because the fact that he expressed the simple fear of I’m stuck to unstuck them. You know, they could say, OK, it’s OK to be stuck. And so and now we move past it.

So I think that, know, if that’s, think that’s what you meant, but it’s not all about what someone might first think when you hear that we’re vulnerable. It’s all about being human, you know, not always having all the answers, but understanding your role is to help everybody get to the best answer. I once was at a conference and Alex Skorsky, who was previous CEO of J &J said, it’s not, it’s your role as a leader is not to have the best answer in the room, it’s to get the best answer out of the room which is another version of vulnerability or humbleness. know, you mean I don’t have to be in here and know it. I just have to make sure all of them. Now, if you know the best answer, you might have to guide people to it. That’s a different thing. Sometimes you do. I’m not saying you don’t always know the best answer.

Skot Waldron (25:54.856)
Right.

I love that. Getting the best answer out of the room. it’s so good. Cause I was thinking about this idea and you know, oftentimes, especially young leaders and maybe you’ve heard the same thing. They’re coming into a new role or they step in and the imposter syndrome is coming in and they feel like they have to have all the answers. They’re like,

Joe Davis (26:02.734)
Isn’t that a great quote? Yes.

Skot Waldron (26:24.68)
But what if I don’t know this and what if they asked me this and I’ll look incompetent and they’ll wonder why I’m even in this role in the first place and did they make a mistake? And that’s their self-preservation coming out. But them sitting there thinking about this idea of, gotta have all, and I said, your job isn’t necessarily to have all the answers. Like, do you really think you’re going to have every answer for that engineer and that marketing person and that sales development person and that accountant? like, really? Like.

It’s a little bit of a high bar, man. Your job as a leader is to either coach them into like getting the answer out of them, right? Which is what you just said. How do I get the best answer out of the room or removing obstacles so that they can find the best answer for themselves.

Joe Davis (27:00.142)
Yeah.

Well, or yo, they slash all of you can together. No, know you went, no, of course what you said, my brother-in-law, the CEO of company said, Joe, but you know, we were trained to never say, I don’t know as a kid. said, you have a Brad, I remember a point, at least for me, where someone said, you know, the best thing to say, if you don’t know the answer is I don’t know. Cause you’re get caught one or the other. You’re gonna get caught if you’re lying, you’re gonna caught if you’re bullshitting. If you just crumble and don’t get all wishy washy, well then, you know, but hey, I don’t know right now, I’ll find out.

Who doesn’t like that look? It look in your eye. I don’t know right now, but I’ll find out. Any manager or leader loves to hear that from their team. If they don’t know, now maybe they’d want them to know. I’m, it’s, yeah, I somehow this is a, this whole, you gotta know everything is horrible, disservice to whatever gets trained into us. No offense, but it really is bad.

Skot Waldron (27:53.21)
It is, it is. And you know what, with, with, I think with younger generations coming up, they expect you not to know everything. And then when you act like, you know, everything they automatically see you as inauthentic as like, so I think that’s part of it too.

Joe Davis (28:10.83)
Well, I think one thing that’s, I don’t know if it’s changed because maybe people 40, 50 years ago wish they could see humaneness from their company bosses, but you know, they didn’t. You remember the old, Jack Welch, you know, that, you know, you better be in the top, side, fire all of you, boom, boom. Or, you know, IBM, everyone was a cog in the wheel. No offense to IBM, it’s a great company, but white shirt, blue suits, did your job, came, you know, that is not what people expect now. Social media changed it. It just put a lot of pressures and exposure on people and COVID put it over the edge. But people want to see humanity. They need to see humanity in their leaders. Google did a study that came across some more project, Oxygen, called it. They integrated 80,000 of their managers and said, what makes the best managers? Clearly, that’s how big Google is, doesn’t it? But the best managers were good coaches. What made them good coaches? They engaged their teams and how they engage them. They asked and they listened. They asked and they listened. So if you knew everything, you wouldn’t be asking questions and listening over and over and over. That was the number one trait of those who got the best results and the team members thought was the best leader.

Skot Waldron (29:24.296)
Have you ever been involved with a company that has that culture, even like a mechanism somehow of asking and listening? Like whether it’s a, I don’t know, a drop box in the front office, or if it’s like some kind of digital solution, or whether it’s part of their review process monthly with one-on-ones, or I don’t know, like.

Joe Davis (29:48.898)
Well, I think I’m just blanking. What’s Ray Dalio’s company? I’m just blanking the Bridgewater, the hardcore hedge fund private happy firm. I interviewed one interview with them at one point. My wife said, hey, I’m not moving to New York, so you can keep interviewing, but you might as well stop.

But you know, they had that rep, they had very much reputation. You better be listening, honest time, all of them. And I think it was an extreme. I think the company I would highlight, which, but it’s giant, but it was true is when Satya Nadella took over Microsoft. You Microsoft had been the opposite of that. I mean, under Bill Gates, was just technology. course, Steve, I’m just blanking his last name. It was just a hard ass, but Steve Ballmer.

But Satya turned everything to, you know, I want to more of an ask and listen, a humble, we don’t know learning culture. And he, he single-handedly, you know, he just kept it going down and down. Now I’m sure there’s plenty of individuals in that place that don’t behave that way. It’s a giant company. But that was a culture that he put in there. And you’d saw the turnaround in, in, in Microsoft very dramatically, as well as bringing in, he was a technical genius and had the insight that the… the cloud is where the money is. I mean, there’s other things he wants, but he fundamentally changed the culture to more of that type of culture.

Skot Waldron (31:12.35)
I feel and being in the space that we’re in with leadership and consulting and culture development and communication. And it is a lot of the soft stuff. I have people on the show that talk about, know, there’s Stephen Faber wrote, you know, love is just damn good business, you know, and you know, that idea of love and talking and saying the love word at work and how do we do those things?

Talking about generosity and authenticity and you know, we talk about these things quite often. I don’t ever have, I’m not gonna say ever. I don’t necessarily have people on this show that are like hard driven, fast. This is how we lead. We build this system, build this system, build this system, build this system and then you’re a successful leader. Like that doesn’t, we don’t talk about that like on this show. And so I’m just, I don’t know. It’s kind of this thing that I think gets undervalued.

We talk about it, we appreciate it inside of our cultures when it’s there, because we notice when it’s not for sure.

Joe Davis (32:15.662)
Right. No, you’re right. it’s essentially I did have someone maybe a year ago, I was talking to the ECG office, someone raised a question for you, Joe, you were always known to be a real hard ass. So when did that change and what changed? I said, I said, I said, no, no, I always care about results. Every office I ran a business, we got results. But and I was very focused on that. And if people didn’t cut it up BCG, I let them go. But I consider that to be a very caring thing. I mean, if you’re not making it, you got to go work somewhere else because you don’t want to be stuck. mean, so I said, you know, I just the problem is you didn’t hear me ever talk to just saying that you’re saying I believe all the time I cared about growing the team. That was what was in my head. Now I’ve talked about the results, but I knew in my behaviors that it was all about ensuring everybody’s hummin. Everyone’s hummin. The thing works unless you’re not adequate people. That’s a different problem.

But you’re right, we don’t talk about that. We set some metrics, you get the numbers. I did have some feedback once, I moved to the West Coast to run the West Coast to BCG and whatever, doesn’t matter, but it went from so-so performance to exceptional performance. I’m very lucky. I did a lot of things, they make it happen. But my feedback from at the end of the year, they said, well, Joe, it’s really great that they use us, but I have to step out of the room when it’s my turn.

They said, it’s really great because you’re performing well. The West Coast program, what we really noticed is all the individuals, their game all just lifted, which is your point. It’s not just that the processes brought in place or the way we invest or the way we sold or the we focused, but everyone lifted their game through development training and motivation. And that’s when I got the feedback. And I was actually quite pleased in my own firm, realized that’s what made the difference. It wasn’t anything else, but it’s lifting everybody’s game.

Skot Waldron (34:08.862)
That’s really smart. mean, it’s, and I, and it leads me to this idea of, where, where I kind of want to like wrap this up with this idea of, know, you’ve been there, you’ve kind of done the things in your life that have led you to this point in your life. And you feel like you’ve had a successful career, I’m assuming. And you feel like you’ve made an impact in people’s lives. And, and, and what I want to know from you is,

What is that thing you would recommend or advice you would give at this point in your life in this crystallized intelligence brilliance that you have that would apply to a leader today listening to the show?

Joe Davis (34:54.626)
Yeah, think if I try to put that simply, think if you never forget you have to get results, I will say that. But if you look at your team and your people, don’t call them your people, the people who work with you and understand they are humans, they are human beings, they have aspirations, they’re like that young guy view that you talked about, they have goals, they have things they need to do differently. And if you focus on understanding their humans and helping them to be at their best, you are going to perform well. It’s just going to happen. But you’ve got to help them perform at their best, you know, and that might take harsh feedback sometimes. I mean, honest, not brutal, but harsh feedback. It’ll take positive reinforcement other times. I mean, it’s the balance of things. But that’s if you look at that team and say they’re a group of humans and my job is to motivate and inspire, you’re going to win. I don’t want to call it winning, but you’re going to win.

Yeah, I know. You’re going to very well, and your organizations do well, et cetera. I think that’s a thing to remember. I mean, that’s what people didn’t think about 50 years ago. And I think the people, your teams expect that nowadays, as you said. It’s just, for a lot of reasons, the world’s changed.

Skot Waldron (35:56.958)
That’s all. What causes leaders to not look at the people they work with as humans?

Joe Davis (36:16.31)
Well, a couple of things. First off, they’re always in a hurry. They don’t think they have time to even stop and think about that, which I know is something you argue. Secondly, they’re too arrogant and think I got all the answers and I just push these people around to get there. Third, fear. you mean I have to connect with them as Skot Waldron, not as some podcast guy? I have to see Skot as a person? Ooh, that’s a big ask.

You know that one’s trickier. Those would be those you know times legitimate excuse think you know it all is a mistake and just fear of having to figure out how really connect with people is something you’ll learn.

Skot Waldron (36:56.542)
That’s so cool. There’s something you said to me at the, uh, at the beginning of the show, before we started recording as kind of something you wanted to do. And if you don’t mind, I’d like to quote it. said you want to increase the depth of your sincerity. Um, as you go doing the interviews and as you go connect with people in life and whatnot. And that, think, you know, having that. Realization or that focus in your life.

Joe Davis (36:58.221)
Thank

Skot Waldron (37:24.828)
Right now is so amazing. think it’s a really good example for all of us of how we can too, think about how sincere we being in our leadership, how sincere are we being with our kids and our families and the people that we interact with every day? think that’s, that’s a big deal, man. So I’d love that.

Joe Davis (37:44.086)
Thank you. Thank you, Skot. Thank you. Yep.

Skot Waldron (37:48.36)
So keep crushing it, man. Keep doing what you’re doing. You’re not done yet, Joe. You’re not done. So keep up the good work. I really appreciate you being on the show and sharing your thoughts. yeah, I wish you the best, man. Seems like you have a lot to give, so keep giving.

Joe Davis (37:50.606)
I’ll do my best. I know, I know,  I’m not quitting.

Thank you, Mrs. Fung. Thank you very much. Great to be here.