Skot Waldron:
Unlocked is brought to you by Invincible, a program designed to unlock the potential of people and teams inside your organization. Join companies like Pfizer, Delta, the CDC, Google and Chick-fil-A and others in over 116 countries that are currently using this program to increase productivity and develop healthy cultures. Access hundreds of hours of content that is accessible anytime, anywhere. And finally, use real time data to understand the health of every team inside your organization, which teams are performing, and which ones aren't. Then understand the why behind that performance. Get free access to Invincible for 30 days by visiting www.giant.tv/30days. Hi, everybody, welcome to another episode of Unlocked. I'm Skot, and today we're going to talk about unlocking the potential of people so that we can unlock the potential of our organizations. And today is a very, very powerful topic. Helen Fagan is an Iranian immigrant who came here as a child, first to England, then to United States in the late 70s, early 80s. And she had quite a journey.
She's going to tell you that story at the beginning of this interview, and tell you about her experience with culture, culture shift, culture change, right? All those things. And the realization that her normal was different than everybody else's normal, but she was around as a young girl coming into this environment and then going into a boarding school and being left by our parents, because they had to go back to Iran. You're going to hear about all of that, and how that sparked her career and her life for the future, and what that was going to do to her own thinking about diversity and inclusion. She is the founder of Global Leadership Group, and she talks to companies and teachers and coaches and writes and inspires about diversity and inclusion with many organizations. She writes this. "Organizations and communities must evolve to disrupt current polarization and tribalism, and meet the growing demands of globalization."
And as we become more global, and the way we do business, and the way we act and the way that we function as a society, we need to keep that in mind. So, this interview was super impactful for me and super powerful. And we had some great conversations before and after this interview, and I hope you're going to get a lot out of this. I know I did. So, let's do it. Here we come, Helen. Helen, welcome to the show.
Helen Fagan:
Well, hello, Skot, I'm excited to be here. Really thrilled to have a chance to talk to you.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah, yeah. This is going to be good. I've been looking forward to this.
HELEN FAGAN:
Likewise.
SKOT WALDRON:
And I was reading pieces of your book. And the way you wrote this new book, Becoming Inclusive, is really... It's a very personal story. And I was really taken into your head. It was almost like reading pieces of a diary. Right? So give us a little bit of premise on the new book, tell us a little bit about your background first, and how it led you to writing this book.
HELEN FAGAN:
Yeah. Thank you for that. I wanted this to be... The book is, Becoming Inclusive. So I wanted to use myself as a person who's on this journey with others, because this is a journey that I've been on. So, I'm originally from Iran, my father was in charge of export oil for the National Iranian oil company. And in the 50s, and 60s and 70s if you had money, and were established, you sent your children to other countries to be educated, a lot like international students now, and then they come back and my parents vision was that we would be leaders in the country like he was. And so I moved to England at age 12, and that's where I learned to speak English. I had to actually learn to speak English in the summer, because school started. I went to England in June school started in September, and it was going to be all in English.
And my father was a visionary. He believed that if children learned a language before in those primary years, that it would be more like a first language. And so we would struggle less once we got to college, which for him was important that we did well, right? And so that's the reason they moved us so young. And when I lived in England, my mother, my parents got a house and we lived. It was my two brothers and I and my mom lived in a house together, and my dad who traveled all over the world would go to work and do his thing, and then he would come to England and visit us. So we would see him once every three or four months, and for a month at a time or so. That kind of thing. And that was our life from summer of 1976 until September of 1979. And 78, England informed my parents that they would not renew our visas, because of some of the stuff that was going on in Iran. And so my parents began to look for another place for us to go and continue our education.
My father found a school in Central Florida, and my parents got visas for us, but because of everything that was going on, the US government wouldn't give them visa to come and my mother to stay with us. So, we went to a boarding school, my parents dropped us off. And then they had to go back to Iran. I was 15, my older brother was 16, my younger brother was 14. And this was September of 1979. And if you remember, in November of 1979, the US hostages were taken in Iran, and everything turned upside down for our family and all of the Iranians around the country. And so, for a long time, I wouldn't admit to being Iranian, and my hiding my identity, and assimilating, and my trying to navigate cultural differences. And all of those things took me to a place where I was actually working in human resources for a company. I worked in human resources all over the country. But I worked for human resources, where I report to the Vice President of human resources, who report to the president of the company.
And a situation happened with my father, who was multilingual and had a stroke, and needed help in the hospital that led me... This situation hurt me so deeply, that led me to want to ensure something like that didn't ever happen to anyone else's father. And so for me, starting down the work of becoming inclusive, was very much a personal. It became kind of my vision and my mission, as I went into a doctoral program, I wanted to research how do people become inclusive? What does it take for organizations to become inclusive? What is the impact of inclusion on organizations, on individuals? And so that's been the thrust of my research, that's been the thrust of what I've been teaching, what I consult on, and still continues with my own children, and my grandchildren now and our lives. And so, I couldn't separate the two in writing this book. It had to be written for me in that way.
SKOT WALDRON:
Very, very interesting perspective. And you have something very unique, right? Being Iranian, going to England, going to the US, going to boarding school, family having to go back to Iran, then the hostage situation. I mean, that's very tough to duplicate any kind of situation like that in anyone's life. Right?
HELEN FAGAN:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
SKOT WALDRON:
So the experiences you had were pretty monumental. And you start out in your book, writing about this experience with your father in the hospital.
HELEN FAGAN:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
SKOT WALDRON:
And can you briefly recap that story for the audience?
HELEN FAGAN:
Yeah, absolutely. So, my father as I mentioned, spoke multiple languages. He was educated, worldly traveled, very well respected. He came to visit me and stayed with me for a month and then he left and he was flying to San Diego, but he had a layover in Detroit to visit my younger brother who was going through surgical residency at that time. So he thought, "Okay, I'll just have an extended layover in Detroit, visit with him for a little bit and then I'll go to San Diego." My father had a heart attack. My brother took him to the hospital and they said, "Yes, he's having a heart attack." They did open heart surgery. During surgery he ended up having a stroke. It was the most severe kind of stroke you could have. And so this was 1991, July of 1991, he had the stroke. It was called a locked-in syndrome. Basically, my father could hear you, understand, but he couldn't move, he couldn't speak, he could barely blink. I mean, he could blink in response to your questions and barely not in response to your questions.
And it became really quickly very evident to us that when we spoke to him in Farsi, he understood us, but if anyone spoke to him in English, he didn't understand. It was like a blank stare. It was almost like he didn't comprehend what was being said. And that was... We didn't have information regarding the brain at that time that we do now, right? 30 something years later. But anyways, I'm in the room with him, and I'm massaging his legs and his arms, and I'm just kind of taking care of him, I was in there by myself. And the nurse comes in, and she's training a young person. And so she's asking questions of me, and I am asking them in Farsi of my father, and trying to read his body language, trying to make sense of it, and then responding back to this nurse.
So when it's all done, I could tell she was getting frustrated. As she's walking out of the room, she says under her breath to the person she's training, "I wish they would learn to speak English, it would make our jobs so much easier." And for me, that was like a dagger in my heart. It was literally like someone just... There was no other pain that could have been inflicted on me that would have been worse in that moment. And something overcame me, and I call it being emotionally hijacked. I followed this poor nurse out of the room, I was fuming, and I verbally vomited on her. And I'm not proud of that. Absolutely it was not the right way to handle it. She handled it poorly, I handled it poorly. But what it did in me, was to say, this cannot happen. I knew healthcare, I'd worked in health care, multiple states, different environments, hospital, insurance, I'd worked in different environments, and I knew that there had to be something done differently.
And so when we moved to Nebraska, it was like, "Okay, this is what I want to do, and the opportunity came for me to create and lead a diversity and cultural competence program at a large health system. And I did that. And that really was the work. That's kind of what led to this work for me.
SKOT WALDRON:
There's a statement in your book, when you're at the end of the story, you're talking about the experience. And you say, "In cases like this, the life of a patient and his or her loved ones depends on the unpredictable frame of mind for those in charge."
HELEN FAGAN:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
SKOT WALDRON:
So how does that apply? Expand on that for me in relation to this story?
HELEN FAGAN:
Yeah. So the frame of mind of the person that is taking care of you... And I let me back up a little bit, Skot, there's no other place in our universe where except a prison system where a person enters into our environment to get service or care from us, and we tell them, take off your clothes, put on this wristband, put on this gown, stay in this bed, don't get out unless I give you permission, don't eat or drink anything unless I give you permission. To be okay with me poking you, prodding you, making you feel worse than you did when you entered. And you are to trust me and only ask me questions once because I'm tired of explaining. I mean, that's literally the culture of healthcare. And there's no place else that we do that. And the longer someone has been in healthcare, the harder it is for them to realize that this is a part of their expectations of those things that I just described, aren't the norm for other people. Right? And so when we go on autopilot is when we run into problems.
So my frame of mind, I think this is the tenth patient I've told to stay in their bed today, is this person's not their norm. And that frame of mind, really that person in healthcare, it's a huge burden for people in health care, which I admire people who deliver health care, because it's a huge calling, right? And I want them to have the capacity to understand the implications. And I've had the experience of working with some amazing people in health care, who do get that and who do deliver care with compassion, and really understand and don't operate on autopilot, though, it's easy as human beings to want to operate on autopilot.
SKOT WALDRON:
So how does that frame of mind in the way that having to have the patience of repeating or instructing or going through the process every time, and that frame of mind in healthcare, how does... Is what we've talked about, how does that go into us as leaders for every organization, how do you apply that same idea?
HELEN FAGAN:
Yeah. It's a great question, Skot. And the thing is that all of us go on autopilot in our roles in some respect. Once we get comfortable with something, once something begins to work for us, and we find that it's working, we begin to repeat that, it doesn't matter if I am the CEO of a company, how I run a meeting, to I am a pilot, to I'm an OR nurse. Once I get into my routine and comfort with that, I begin to apply those things. And what happens is, those comfort levels I need to recognize are an uncomfortable spaces for some people. And here's the thing, as a leader, the higher up you go in the organization, the less expertise of whatever it is you do needs to happen, the more expertise of human beings needs to be there. So leaders become in my opinion, connoisseurs of human behavior. You have to operate at a level that really is interested, is curious to understand other people. And that doesn't work well in the same space as autopilot.
SKOT WALDRON:
Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense. It's really good insight. And I love that. Right? As we go up our skill, the trade, the thing that we are good at, the thing that we learned in school or whatever, right? Becomes less of what we do every day, and it becomes more about our interactions. And Simon Sinek says he hates the term soft skills, right?
HELEN FAGAN:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
SKOT WALDRON:
He uses the term human skills.
HELEN FAGAN:
Right.
SKOT WALDRON:
And because that's really what it becomes about, it's what are my human skills at this point to help you become the best person you can be? Right?
HELEN FAGAN:
Exactly.
SKOT WALDRON:
To liberate you as a person, how do I interact with you?
HELEN FAGAN:
Right. ANd that's the thing, is that leaders truly, leadership is not about management. Management is a different thing, leadership is about creating this space. And personally, my definition of leadership is positive influence that results in healthy outcomes, and moves people forward.
SKOT WALDRON:
Okay. Say that again.
HELEN FAGAN:
Positive influence that results in healthy outcomes, and moves people forward. The Healthy outcomes could be the health of the person, the health of the organization, the health of the strategy that we're trying... Whatever it is, we're trying to accomplish and we are moving forward in that direction. Not just in the direction of the organization's goals, but also in the direction of how I am fulfilled as a human being in the operation of meeting the organization's goals. And I believe, employees who work with leaders that really understand that and really live that out, tend to be more motivated, healthier, more dedicated to the organization. They just are excited about being in that environment.
SKOT WALDRON:
Right on. Let's bring in the diversity and inclusion conversation. That is your focus, that is your thing. There's a... You know what I love about your book too? I love at the end, the questions. The thought provoking questions. And one of them you have in here says, have you ever had a moment where you realize that suddenly your "normal" was actually "different?" And what was that experience like? And you just leave it there and let people ponder that that idea. So for me, growing up as a white male in the south, in America, I have my normal, it's probably pretty close to a lot other people's normal around me.
You and a lot of other people in this country and around the world, have what you consider a normal, but then there's this kind of this realization whether it was in the hospital where you had this interaction with this nurse, or some other experience where all of a sudden, maybe these young children are growing up and maybe they're the only black child in an entirely white neighborhood, and all of a sudden they come into this realization that, "Oh, I looked different. Oh, people treat me different now as a 16 year old black male versus a 16 year old, white blond haired female." Right? So, let's talk about that. What inspired that question? That normal versus different?
HELEN FAGAN:
Yeah. So the idea is, typically what happens is when our needs, our thoughts, our ideas, our expectations are not met, is when we have our strongest emotional reactions. Right? So, the expectation comes from what I consider to be normal, right? It's normal for you to make eye contact, because that was my normal. Right? It's normal for you to wear deodorant, because that's my normal. It's normal... I hate when people say, "Oh, some people just don't have common sense." Well, what is the meaning of common sense? Common sense comes from the idea, the British idea of common sensibilities of human behavior. And those are shared by people who have a shared experience, a shared background. So my idea of common sense can be very different from your idea of common sense. And so, my question in asking that question, what I want people to realize is to gain an awareness of that other people's perspective is very different from their own.
And to really begin to think about those expectations that they have, and ask themselves when those emotional reactions happen. What was the expectation? What did I expect? And what was not met? What reaction is that? Now, let me shift my [inaudible 00:21:49], my own perspective and try to see it from the other person's perspective. So, inclusive leaders have this capacity to pause judgment, step back and take this 30,000 foot view of the situation. They recognize while they're seeing it this way, the other person is seeing it this way. And the way that that other person sees it, makes sense to them. Right? And so, with the riots that we had post George Floyd's killing, right? I heard a lot of people, why are they looting and destroying? So, my understanding of how pain needs to be released, how it impacts the brain, how it impacts the body, I understood the reason for the anger and the looting, while it isn't something I would do, I understood it.
Does that make sense? And so I want people to pause and say, it isn't my normal when I get angry to go and do this. But can I pause and see what would cause someone else to do that? So everything that black Americans have expected of government in that moment failed, and has failed historically, and continues to fail. And so, when Colin Kaepernick knelt, people were like, "I'm never watching NFL again. He can do it some other way." And my old question always was, what's the other way? What other way could he share his sentiment of our country has failed to live up to its standard of caring of creating a space where all human beings are valued? And so his kneeling on the one end of the spectrum, to looting on the other end of the spectrum, right? Neither were acceptable by others observing. What is it that we expect? What is it that we want to see? Until we have answers to those questions? We are part of the problem rather than part of the solution in bringing social justice to happen in our country.
SKOT WALDRON:
As we read further in your book, there is a segment here you talk about the transition into boarding school, and your parents leaving. And I'm going to read a little segment out of this as well.
HELEN FAGAN:
Okay.
SKOT WALDRON:
You say, "In a matter of days, culture shock settled over me, many things I thought of as normal became weird, because they were so different from England and Iran. My roommates shave their underarms and legs, they wore more makeup, had boyfriends, smoke cigarettes and drink. I didn't do any of those things. And because I refused to, they made fun of me. It felt much like ridicule I had endured in England. For the first time, I felt a memory of pain associated with being different. Because of the painful experiences I had endured England, I made unfavorable assumptions about Florida, the United States and the people living around me." So this is interesting to me, because you're talking about at the beginning, you started talking about, "Well, I'm having this realization that I'm not the same as these other girls."
And there was this association, a pain, but then you said something where it says, "Because of the painful experience I endured, I made unfavorable assumptions..." So then you're turning right back on you. I made unfavorable assumptions about Florida, and the United States and the people living around me. So this is interesting to me. Talk about this, why did you kind of spin it? Because on one side, I look at it and I'm like, so you are... And I don't know if this is the right word, okay? But you are becoming either a victim of the circumstance in some way, shape or form, you are all of a sudden having this realization that, "I'm not like these girls, and now they're making fun of me. And that's not right." Right? But now you've spun it and you're saying, "But I was having unfavorable ideas about them as well."
HELEN FAGAN:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
SKOT WALDRON:
Talk to talk about that.
HELEN FAGAN:
Yeah, I want people as they're reading this, to realize that every one of us goes through life experiences, and we have a choice to make. We can take those bad things that happened to us and become cynical and negative and mean towards others, or we can take those things and say, How are these things shaping my perception and my attitude towards others? I've experienced pain, but how can I use that pain as a way to empathize with others who are currently experiencing pain? And I also want people to know that I'm not perfect. I am as human as anyone else, I have my own assumptions, I have my own stereotypes that I hold, and I have to work on those every single day. That's why I call this becoming inclusive. Because for the rest of my life, I will be on this journey of becoming inclusive as I have new experiences, our brains are wired to connect present experience with past issues. So, our limbic brain which is 95% of what we use to operate in our day-to-day, associates current circumstances with what's happened in the past and makes a decision about it.
So, if... And I hear this from employers or leaders. They'll say, "I hired a Mexican before, and it didn't work out. Language didn't work out, I'm not going to hire." And so what they're doing is they're applying the experience with that one person to an entire group. And that's what I want people to realize, that we have a choice to do. And I had a choice in that moment. I had a choice to realize, yes, there is a victim, but I'm not going to remain in that victim state. I'm going to say how can I grow from this and you have the option to do that too.
SKOT WALDRON:
Beautiful. Beautiful. Because as soon as we start taking a position of, "Whoa, you're doing this to me" Right? Our minds start building walls, right?
HELEN FAGAN:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
SKOT WALDRON:
We start building walls of self preservation. Now, I'm afraid of losing something. I'm trying to hide something. I'm trying to prove something. And all of a sudden my wall's going to go up. And as soon as that person senses my wall going up, their wall goes up. Okay? So now we're all in this state of self preservation, where we are looking out for ourselves. No longer am I looking out for you, I might even come against you. Right?
HELEN FAGAN:
Beautifully said, Skot.
SKOT WALDRON:
So it's more about that frame of mind that you took, which is really strong of, "Hey, this isn't right how they're treating me." And you could have easily put up your wall and then gone against them. But you chose to say, "Okay, what is this doing to me?" Right? So, taking power, and putting it back in your court is what you did, which is what we're all going to need to do the rest of our lives because we're never-
HELEN FAGAN:
Right.
SKOT WALDRON:
It's not like all of a sudden you go, "Oh, I'm inclusive now. Check, done." Right?
HELEN FAGAN:
Yeah.
SKOT WALDRON:
It's that journey that goes on and on and on. And I'm going to read one more thing from your book. It says, "My experiences taught me that being normal meant fitting in. But fitting in shouldn't mean giving up parts of ourselves. We don't live in an either or world. We live in an and both world. We are better when we genuinely enjoy the complex and multi dimensional parts of each other. I've come to realize that peace begins to unfold inside each of us when we sense we are accepted for all parts of us."
HELEN FAGAN:
Yes. Yes. And Skot, I will have to tell you that my dorm mom, Louisa Anderson, was the person that was instrumental in helping me in that moment, right? So, if you... And this is the power that those who are of the dominant population in the United States, so white, heterosexual, male, female, whatever, if you're of the dominant population, you have power, you have the ability to come alongside someone when they are having an experience like I was having, and ask them questions that gets them to create positive meaning from the experience.
It's painful, it sucks, sit with it for a little bit, let them be, experience the pain, allow them to go through that process, but at the same time, help them to not remain in that process. Help them to see, "Okay, so what do we do about this now? Where do we go from here?" And my dorm mom, Louise Anderson, who became my American family, her children and her husband, Shimish, I went to Thanksgiving, my first Thanksgiving in the US after the hostage crisis happened, and there was all this negative stuff going on. She's like, "I want you to come to my house, and I want you to experience Thanksgiving. I want you to realize all Americans aren't this way." And so her simple act of doing that really helped me to be able to shift my perspective and to move out of that space. So that's a gift that she gave me, that continues with me even to this day. And that's a gift that every single one of us has the ability to give others.
SKOT WALDRON:
You use two words, at the end of this particular chapter, when you ask these questions. And two words stand out to me, I'm not going to read the whole question, but courageous, and humility. So, on one side, right? And you speak about courage for both sides. On one side, the courage is to stand up, right? To stand up for the injustice, to stand up for the things that aren't right. Okay? And to stand up and maybe admit that something is wrong. That takes courage, right?
HELEN FAGAN:
Yeah.
SKOT WALDRON:
And humility.
HELEN FAGAN:
Yes.
SKOT WALDRON:
But also on the side of the person that is possibly being offended, that they are taking courage to rise above.
HELEN FAGAN:
Yes.
SKOT WALDRON:
To rise over the thing that is happening, and take a higher ground to what's happening and not get sucked in to the toxicity that's happening within a culture, whether that's a country, whether that's an organization, whether that's a family or a team, right? It's all about that. And the humility to admit that I was wrong, or the humility to have possible sympathy or understanding for that other individual on either side, is where that real power is going to come in.
HELEN FAGAN:
Yeah. And in our research on inclusive leaders, we found that there are definitely attributes that inclusive leaders have. And humility and courage are the two of those attributes, those two words. So, yes, we do need to be humble while being courageous. Humble enough to know we don't know everything about everyone, about all of life experiences, and courageous enough to say, I'm willing to learn, I'm willing to engage in this process, I'm willing to stand up, even though I'm not sure what that means. But I'm willing to come alongside someone. And then the other side, the person is courageous enough to say, "I'm not going to remain in the space of being a victim, and I am going to humble myself as a way of growing." So on both sides, it's required.
SKOT WALDRON:
And I love the word you used in there. And we talk about this in the idea of faith and spiritual growth, is just having the desire to know is the first. Right?
HELEN FAGAN:
Right.
SKOT WALDRON:
The desire to move beyond. The desire to be strong. The desire to have... Even like you said, I may not know where to start, I may not know what to do, but just the desire, right?
HELEN FAGAN:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
SKOT WALDRON:
Having that first of all is going to be really important for us. I'm going to read one last question. I'd like to get your insights on this. Where do leaders start in this idea of diversity and inclusion? Where do we start as leaders just to understand our own personal bias, or roadblocks to inclusion? And what do we do about that?
HELEN FAGAN:
Yeah, it's a great question. And it's one that I provide guidance when I work with individuals. My favorite thing to tell people is, get a single subject notebook or a journal, whatever it is that you want, that meets your needs. Every time you have an emotional reaction to something someone says, or does, call this your intercultural insights journal, write down the circumstance, your reaction, and then do some reflection on what was my expectation? What didn't happen? That begins over a period of time, you are beginning to gain insight, and that awareness about those things that have shaped you, whether that's family upbringing, pain you've experienced, cultural expectations, ego. Whatever it is, you begin to gain insights about yourself.
And that openness and self awareness, are kind of like the underpinning of our inclusive leaders. This openness to understand and then self awareness, the willingness to do the work, that courage and humility to do the work to really understand those things about myself, leads me to a place where I am willing to gain additional information, offer support, really understand where change needs to happen. And so those are the things that... That's the one piece if I were to say, would kind of begin you on this path would be to do that. And the reason I put questions at the end of the chapters is because I believe reflection is one of the key ways that human beings have to change behavior, gain awareness through reflection, and then make a decision to move in a different direction, if you choose to.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah, I heard a... I was listening to a mindset podcast this morning. And the phrase was, think about what you think about.
HELEN FAGAN:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
SKOT WALDRON:
Take a minute, think about why you thought. What caused that action? Right? Because thoughts leads to actions which create our reality. So, if we can understand those thoughts, ponder those thoughts, understand what those thoughts do to how we act, then they'll create a better reality for us at the end. If we don't like our current reality, reverse engineer it. What was the action that created that reality? Oh, it was the thought that happened to create that action-
HELEN FAGAN:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
SKOT WALDRON:
...awareness, right? Of who we are, and the emotional intelligence is going to get us a long way. So, I love that idea. That journal idea, writing down, call them triggers, call them things that spark you, things that bring up some emotion in you. Writing the circumstance and writing down that feeling associated with that and understanding, possibly what that was. Maybe talking to a loved one about it. Right? Or a spouse. "Hey, this happened to me." I can't really understand about... What do you think of that?" Right?
HELEN FAGAN:
Yeah.
SKOT WALDRON:
Why do you think I acted that way and kind of putting your body armor on and hearing what people really have to say about it.
HELEN FAGAN:
I agree, Skot. And I think for those people who are like, "I'm not a journaler." Just jot down the event, jot down... If you keep a journal or like a timekeeper, whatever it is, the event and the reaction, and then think through the expectation. And like you said, talk to a loved one through the expectation. If you're not a person who writes things down, you can still do that.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah, I agree. The expectation is really key. I missed that point earlier, but yes, that is super key. Because our expectations are going to drive a lot. And missed expectations cause disappointment. That isn't good. So, this has been super, super fantastic. I've loved this conversation. Where can people do to get a hold of the book?
HELEN FAGAN:
Well, you can order it on Amazon or any of the places that is available, Becoming Inclusive, a worthy pursuit and leadership and I believe all human beings have the capacity to be leaders, people influencing others. And so yeah, you can get it on any of the typical bookstores, Barnes & Noble, wherever you purchase books.
SKOT WALDRON:
Super fantastic. Good luck with the lunch, and everything moving forward with the career and helping build up humanity to... Calling us up to be better, right? And we all need to work on that. And I appreciate your contributions and everything you're doing.
HELEN FAGAN:
Thank you, Skot, and thanks for everything you're doing. And thanks for the invitation to share this space with you today.
SKOT WALDRON:
I hope you will take a minute to reflect. Okay? Because that's kind of the premise of what she does at the end of all the chapters of her book, Becoming Inclusive, is taking a moment to reflect. Think about the things you're thinking about. Right? As I mentioned about that mindset podcast I was listening to. What are the thoughts and actions that are creating a reality? And is that reality helping bridge. Bring us together? Or is that reality that we're split, that we're not unified, that we're not aligned in our goals as an organization when it comes to diversity and inclusion? So, I think that we need to ponder that and think about it. I loved the idea that she mentioned about positive influence, and what leaders are that positive influence that results in healthy outcomes. And that it moves people forward. That's what leadership is.
Leadership isn't, I'm good at a skill, right? I'm good at this thing that got me to this level, and now my leader. No. That is a skill, right? You're good at that thing, that does not make you a good leader. And managing people does not make you a leader. Right? Influence that results in healthy outcomes, that moves people forward. That's what makes you a leader. And I want you to think about that as you go forward. Check out her book. I am... I've read pieces of it. As you saw in the interview, really inspiring. You get into the heart of Helen, and that's what's really great about her. She has the heart and the mind. She has both, logic, rationale, but she also has the passion and the heart behind what she's doing because of where she comes from.
And I really appreciate her doing that. If you want to find out more about me, go to skotwaldron.com, and I've got more information there on my website. I've got a YouTube channel, please like, subscribe, and share your comments there. I've got a lot of freebies there that you can also indulge in because they're awesome. Because I did them. No, I'm just kidding. But yeah, go check that out, connect with me on LinkedIn. And I will see you next time on another episode of Unlocked.
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