Unlocking Grace Under Pressure With John Baldoni

Skot Waldron (00:00.145)
upload and do all of its stuff. And then, if it gets pixelated in whatever, don't it's recording high res on your side, high res on my side. So just kind of go with it, you know, fake it, fake it a little bit. So, all right, here we go. You ready?

John Baldoni (00:17.066)
Ready.

Skot Waldron (00:19.487)
John, is a privilege having you on the show today. I'm excited to talk about all the things we're to talk about.

John Baldoni (00:25.856)
Well, Scott, I appreciate that. You're a great interviewer, so I'm looking forward to some great questions and let's have some fun.

Skot Waldron (00:33.949)
Well, you just put a little pressure on me, John. man. Okay. Well, here it goes. You ready? I am going to ask you, here's my first brilliant question for you, John, is what in the world makes you want to write 16 books? I just wrote one. I just released it in December last year. And I'm like, I'm taking a break for about 12 more years and then we'll see how it goes.

John Baldoni (00:36.94)
Hahaha

John Baldoni (01:00.608)
Well, don't beat yourself up. I'm not the best and the brightest. I'm just a slogger. The reason is, is my original career was in, I was a writer. an English major. So I knew how to write. I was a speech writer. And so I migrated naturally into it. So writing is at the core of what I have to say. And so I'm one of those, Peter Drucker once wrote an article about managing oneself. And he said that you need to know how you learn. He said, I learn.

by speaking aloud. And for many years, and so he was a teacher, of course, many people mentored them. I was the opposite. I learned by writing and then I would verbalize it later. I've kind of become ambidextrous, if you will, or go back and forth. writing was inherent to what I do. And I also am a story, I like to be a storyteller. And so it came naturally to me. So I don't have any more

books on the horizon per se and prose, but I'm migrating very much toward poetry. So that's my new exciting venture.

Skot Waldron (02:09.917)
You are the artist. You are totally, I mean, it was just, you know, watching, watching what you do and how you speak and the way you promote your books. mean, everything involves music and some way, or form, right? Mostly the piano, that you use to interject that little personality into everything you do. so poetry, I'm not surprised, John, I'm not surprised by that next step. that's very, very, very cool.

let's talk about your latest one though. Let's talk about this idea of grace. so tell us about the book. Tell us why, and this isn't the first book on grace you've written. So tell us about it.

John Baldoni (02:52.194)
Well, thank you for mentioning that. My newest book is called Grace Under Pressure Leading Through Change and Crisis. It is the third book in a trilogy on the topic of grace. My first book came out in June of 2019, I think. And then as now, sadly, we were, you know, riven by coarse discourse. So I could have written a screed, but what's the point? So.

I thought back to my origins. know, was raised, or had parents who lived in a spirit of grace. were, my mother was very community focused. My father was a family physician. I was educated by the Jesuits. So I learned about service toward others. And so the topic of grace was not something that we talked about at all, but I saw examples of it. And grace is a concept that I define it as the catalyst for the greater good.

And so that's, so my first book was called Grace, a leader's guide to a better us. And I broke grace down into an acronym. It's generosity, respect, compassion, but it's also action if you're a leader and then energize the organization, which is the E in the word grace. And that's good. And there's a lot of, you know, practical knowledge in there. And then COVID struck and it was perfect. It hit the right chord for COVID.

because people were thinking about seeking to community, if you will, with others. And so I wrote a little book called, it was my first venture in poetry called Grace Notes, Leading in an Upside Down World. And it was a series of reflections, very short about resilience, empathy, all types of things, things that leaders should be thinking about so they can share with their people.

Then I decided, you know, need, if I'm going to make grace as a business topic, I need to give it some, word, muscle. So the phrase that we've heard is grace under pressure. It's a phrase that comes from Hemingway. He wrote it in a letter to Dorothy Parker, a fellow author, and it was picked up by Ted, I'm sorry, John Kennedy speech writer, Ted Sorensen for their book, Profile and Courage.

John Baldoni (05:10.784)
And the way both Hemingway and Kennedy defined grace under pressure was the sense of courage when things are, when you're under pressure. I've broadened it especially to what, when times of crisis and change, what do leaders need to do? Well, they need to do three things, okay? And that's one, take care of their people, two, take care of themselves, and three, prepare for the future.

That's not rocket science. Everybody knows those kinds of things. But the difference is how you do it. And so I have defined grace more broadly and in many chapters, short chapters on topics of the connection toward others. And what connection does is we lead with candor, we lead with courage, we make commitments. And what does this all add up to, Scott? It adds up to community.

And that's really a, and grace becomes that facilitation, the catalyst for the greater good. We build community. And that's what really we're all, all of us are looking for. So.

Skot Waldron (06:21.427)
Yeah. Can I read a little section of what you said in your book here? you said in essence, grace establishes a foundation for mutual understanding and respect on which strong communal ties can thrive. gives people the confidence to connect wholeheartedly to leaders and each other without fear of recrimination. This is how the best leaders foster robust supportive communities, even in turbulent times. So you're talking about communal.

John Baldoni (06:25.34)
I please do.

Skot Waldron (06:49.973)
You talk about connection, you talk about, this idea of, mean, I'm going to throw the word psychological safety in there because you're talking about, can bring up things without fear, supportive communities and turbulent times. mean, in that one paragraph, like you've, you've hit on this idea of grace and why it is so profound.

John Baldoni (07:14.398)
very much it's psychological safety. And I know Amy Edmondson who pioneered that concept and I was writing the book and it echoed with her and I've quoted her many times before and it's kind of all settled in my brain. It took me a while to go, yeah, that's really what community is all about because we're looking for the sense of belonging. That doesn't mean we all agree with one another, but we respect one another and we have the ability to voice our opinions. We feel basically that we belong, all right?

That's really the essence of psychological safety in many ways.

Skot Waldron (07:48.979)
Yeah, there's a, there, there, I think there's a feeling out there in the world of like, especially it seems now, and I don't know if this is different for you. If it's different for me, maybe it's a circles I'm in, but there's a drive for KPIs, a drive for financial health and growth. And you know, we, we run, you know, our clients, they run organizations. They need to be profitable. They need to hit those numbers. They need to make sure they're pushing and challenging their people. Where does grace.

play into that whole narrative.

John Baldoni (08:20.854)
Well, mean, you you can do it with your people or in spite of your people. So how much better is it to do it with people? Now, the concept of grace is that connection, the catalyst for greater good. That doesn't mean, you but businesses are not run as social safety networks. We, leaders owe it to their people to listen and learn from them and nurture and grow together.

So that's a form of grace as well. But of course there's the management imperative. You have to make your numbers. What grace does is that ability to say that I care. think essentially what, we talk a lot about empathy. Empathy is a first step. Empathy is that I understand where someone's coming from. I can feel their discomfort, but I can also feel their joy. That's something we don't talk about a lot. But for a leader, empathy is really the first step.

The real step is compassion. What does it mean to lead with compassion? The caring, the commitment, doing for others. And when you build that doing for others, that's community. And when people feel that they belong in an organization or on a team, they will do for one another and they'll do for the boss. And you're going to make your numbers because people feel that they belong and they want to achieve. They want to achieve. It's a team. I mean, it's not unlike a sports team.

It's that we're all for one, one for all. mean, is that altruistic? Of course it is. But really, highly-functioned, high-performing teams, that's what the essence of it is. And those that click are those that have feelings for one another on a human level, and they'll do for them. I'll cover for you as you cover for me. And when they know their boss has their back, they'll go that extra mile, just as they will. And that'll trickle down to how they relate to their

direct reports or their teammates. it's that team, that cohesion. That's really what it's all about.

Skot Waldron (10:23.549)
And I, and I think we talk about this a lot. And I think that, and I would almost argue that most leaders out there, think, especially some of the younger generations or whatnot, understand this concept. I, the idea of it, they, they really think like, know help my people feel good about it, get teamwork together, make sure we're doing some team building stuff, make sure we're cohesive as a unit, et cetera, but they still don't do it.

Right? They still don't do it. So why not?

John Baldoni (10:56.974)
some may feel uncomfortable. Some may feel, well, they feel, well, that's too soft. That's soft stuff. I don't know how to make that first step. So how do you make the first step? You've heard this more than a thousand times. Listen, how's it going, Scott? How was, how was that project coming? How's it going? How are you doing? And then anything I can help you with Scott. And I do that to all the members of the team, one-on-one in a group.

What do need me to do? So pretty soon it kind of sticks together. So Alan Mulally was great and who ran Ford Motor Company when they were in a very dire circumstance. He took over the company had just lost $25 billion, which is not a really great place to be. But what Alan did and I know him was that ability to bring people together. How did he do that? Well, he had what he calls the business plan review.

All his direct reports were met on Thursday morning, in the morning, and they all shared their stories. And the thing about not just sharing our stories was how can we help one another? used to call, Alan had this kind of altruistic thing, well he's called him the boy scout, because he was so cheerful. How can we work together? How can we do this? How can we pull together? And he got him to work together and it worked remarkably well. So, but that first step is I think listening, first of all, and what do you need me to do?

and then what can we do for one another? if, in Alan's case at Ford Motor Company, someone was having a challenge in marketing or manufacturing, he would say, well, who can help so-and-so do this? Or how can we pull resources to do that? So the team will figure it out together. So it becomes a joint enterprise. It's not leadership down per se, it's leadership across. So, and from below.

Skot Waldron (12:49.203)
And is that what you've seen in your career? mean, you've, you've, you've coached, you know, for decades, right. And, and been in this space and, worked within a lot of different companies, large and small. mean, what is that what you're saying?

John Baldoni (13:03.094)
Well, mean, you know, I mean, I don't, I see the most successful organizations are where bosses care about their people and people feel it, okay? And again, there are successful organizations which are not pleasant to work in. Let's be honest, let's put that aside. I'm not gonna mention who they are, but we know who they are. But how much better for people to come to work where they don't feel the overstressing on rivalries or

pleasing the boss and all those other kinds of stuff. That's all gonna be part of the community, the management process and our management culture. and so it's so much better when people get along with one another, cooperate. Now, as a boss listening, and so Scott, you tell me, well, I'd like to take every Friday off. I will listen to you, but I'm not gonna be obligated to give you every Friday off, but I'll listen to you and I'll listen to your reasons.

So, and the same thing, so if you come to me, the other thing is say, hey, boss, I got this great idea about X, Y, Z. I'll say, well, okay, what are your reasonings for it? And go through it and I go, Scott, it's a great idea, but it's not right for our team at this point. But let's shelve it for a moment. I want you to put your energies on X, which is where we need to focus now. So it's, I'm listening to you, but I'm not doing everything you're asking me to do. And that's a difference.

I think leaders who, as you said, feel that if they listen and they support their people, they'll have to do whatever their team wants them to do. No, just give them the courtesy of saying that I'm with you, I understand, but here's our directives we need to put the KPI we need to deliver on.

Skot Waldron (14:51.167)
So is that grace? mean, that doesn't sound like grace to me, but I want you to spin it. How was that grace?

John Baldoni (14:54.37)
you

John Baldoni (14:57.938)
Well, the listening and the learning is an extension of it because it's a courtesy. When you listen to someone, it means that you value them and that is a form of grace. You're treating them with dignity. and the other thing about it is, it be, it's listening to others, especially when you're very busy, is a chore. Let's be honest, okay? Because you've got a lot of things going on if you're in management, but taking the time to listen,

shows that you care about them as individuals. Now, if they barge into your office and say, boss, boss, boss, you know, go, let's cool it for a moment, Scott, and let's table this and I'll talk to you next time or whatever it is. So you set parameters about it. But I think that what Grace comes down to is that connection. Are we listening to one another? Are we doing for one another? Are we doing for the team? So, you know, so it's

that is kind of this, you know, how can we do the betterment for all of us so that all of us succeed?

Skot Waldron (16:03.775)
Okay. All right. That's good. I like that. and I think it plays into this idea as you're talking to like that. think about it is, I'm showing grace by, by listening, by accepting who you are by, by seeking to understand, where you're coming from, even if I don't fully get it, right. Even if I don't.

Like being able to give you that allowance, I think is generally, guess, what we would think about with grace. Am I thinking about that right?

John Baldoni (16:39.938)
Yeah, think it's Stephen Covey said, seek to understand before you persuade or whatever it is. So where is the other person coming from? And also when new directives come up, give people a voice in that. What do you think about that? What's your point? And then maybe you'll say, could we do this? And maybe it's a good idea. Could we delay this a little bit or should we accelerate this? Whatever, but at least I'm listening.

and I'm giving you an opportunity to voice your opinion about it. so that when you, this is psychological safety, when you voice your opinion, at least you're heard, okay? And that's important. It's not rocket science.

Skot Waldron (17:25.725)
Okay. When I was reading this section of your book, you referenced Ted Lasso in this. Are you a big Ted Lasso fan?

John Baldoni (17:35.156)
I've written three columns on Ted Lasso. Yeah. So, yeah.

Skot Waldron (17:37.947)
Have you? OK, that's cool. Tell me about the Ted Lasso experience and how you're tying this thing in here.

John Baldoni (17:44.204)
Well, Ted Lasso, it's a wonderful, first of it's a wonderful series. And let's be honest, it's fictional and it's comedic, but it's dramedy and that's the new word, dramedy, comedy, so it's dramedy, whatever it is. The series evolved and I probably don't get it at first, but I mean, Ted led with kindness, okay? And how unusual is that? okay, got people to believe in themselves. But where it led to, but you know, get to believe in yourself and you can achieve.

As the series evolved, what it really built was community. So by the third season, there was a community for the team, there was a community for the business environment, and then there was a community of the fans. so everybody, and that's what great teams engender, you know? They're all one for all, all for one. You everybody gets in it, and it's exciting. And that's an essence of a way to look at community. We feel that we belong.

If you're a fan, are you really contributing? Well, in a way, you're cheering, you buy the merchandise, whatever it is, but you feel you're part of something bigger. And that shared experience with fellow fans, there's a joy, there's a personal connection there. Now, on the team itself, they feel that coming from the fans, but they, as a team, know that they're gonna put that extra effort in because they wanna do their best for themselves, but for the cohort on the team, but also for their manager.

Ted Lasso and for the fans and for the boss and the whole thing, you know, I'm feeling I'm working for a greater cause than just, you know, scoring goals. I'm helping our community, those kinds of things. That's really what teamwork is all about.

Skot Waldron (19:25.907)
And how would you recommend that leaders maybe take that initial step? Because I think they see the big picture of like, my people, we've got community and my people were together. We're one in heart, one in mind. You know, we are all achieving the same, like leaders, that's their desire. Okay. But I think they see it as like a giant boulder that they have to roll uphill. And then they go, I just don't want to worry about it right now. I've got four years to turn this thing around or.

whatever and, they're thinking, I don't, you know, whatever's going to happen is going to happen. If you're not on board, just whatever, let me know so I can find somebody else. but what is like some of the initial steps you can take implementing grace, but to build the community that you're really looking for.

John Baldoni (20:13.068)
Well, first of all, as the Buddha saying, be the example that you want to be. So, you you as the boss, they see you listening, they see you doing for others, they see you advocating for them. And then they'll see that the results of that, they'll see your failures. Do you admit mistakes? Those kinds of things. Are you leading for the team? Are you leading for yourself? So it's behavior. They're watching you. You're always on stage. So it...

be that example for you and then have open discussions. You know, it's interesting, there's a mantra that I have borrowed from the military. It came out of Vietnam and it was a US military and it was called, I'm blanking out who did it, but the famous Colonel, let me game it general, but it was three things. He was seen in a firefight.

asking himself, what's happening, what's not happening, what do I need to do to influence the action? And what he was doing was, and I use that as a mantra for every team, for teams to do that. So you have your staff meeting, what's happening? So people can easily say, okay, well, we're doing this, that's the activities. That's easy to diagnose. Then what's not happening? Well, are people engaged? Are customers engaged? Are...

Is there absenteeism? Do we short on resources? All of these kinds of, what are the problems? What are the challenges? The third step is, what do we do about it? So from the manager's point of view is, what do I need to do? Well, you may need to be, if it's short on resources, you need to go to senior management and ask for more resources or extra bodies or whatever. But it's also, shouldn't be just you. What can you, Scott, do? What do you need to do? Do you need to help with Sally?

Do you need to work with DPAC? Do you need to do this? And what can DPAC do for Sally? These kinds of things. So we're fixing these problems, but we're doing it collaboratively and cooperatively. That's the challenge. That's how you get it. So what's happening? What's not happening? What can I do to influence the outcome?

Skot Waldron (22:27.839)
I like that. like that. So John, we're going to turn this whole interview on its head. yes, we are. I know you're ready for it too. I know you're up for it. We're going to introduce AI into this whole discussion because you're kind of doing something a little different than some others when it comes to AI. And what are you doing? Introduce us to that.

John Baldoni (22:34.208)
I like that.

Skot Waldron (22:57.051)
What and what drove that idea? And like, is this thing supposed to take the place of John? know, like introduce it.

John Baldoni (23:09.314)
Well, it's called the Baldoni Chatbot and it's on my website and it's a little blue question mark. You can go in there and ask questions about it. I call it management questions, leadership answers. So little thing. Where did the idea come from? It came from my friend and I call him a mentor, Marshall Goldsmith. Marshall has been working on his bot for four or five years now. And...

COVID put it back a little bit and then Marshall resurrected the concept or at least verbalized it to us. And I thought, you know, I've got some content I'd like to share too. So I worked with a colleague of mine, a fellow member of 100 Coaches, Mahesh Thakur. And he said, I can help you build this. So all credit to Mahesh and his team. Number one colleague is Pavan. And they put together this. What has found is it sourced my

published works, if you will, my books and my interview, maybe my interviews, many of my columns, I've written over a thousand that and all munched it up. So it's exclusive to my content. It's not. So if you ask it who the president is, it's not going to know that. But if you ask about how can I resolve a conflict, you probably get an answer. So the idea is instead of advisory, it's a self coaching tool, per se. The way I use it is my clients, I'll say if I'm coaching

colleague or I mean not colleague, well colleague, whatever, a client and they're having a challenge with that. I'll say go ask the bot about X and or you have them use the bot so they can challenge you know come up with conflict management or insights into resilience that kind of stuff. So it's not formal coaching it's an advisory if you will. So that's really what it is and it's all based on my materials. Of course I quoted a lot of other people so

that's in there too. But I want it to be exclusive to just my stuff as opposed to chat GPT, which anybody can use. So, and it's a good thing.

Skot Waldron (25:14.769)
That's cool. I love it. I got a whole bunch of nerdy questions to ask about, but not for this show. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to do something that I've never done before. I'm going to pull up your website on this thing so we can kind of see this thing in action. If that's cool with you.

John Baldoni (25:39.5)
So

Skot Waldron (25:40.233)
I've got it pulled up here. for those of you listening on audio, the website is, John Baldoni.com. You can go there and check this out. Blue button, bottom right hand corner. You click this thing again. I'm so fascinated because I was playing with a little bit earlier. So, you said earlier, like, how can I resolve a conflict? So. I don't know. We'll see if it, if it pops up, with something here.

Chatbot John. I never have to pay for John's advice ever again. I just go read all your books and then I could also go to the chatbot and I just got an answer. So here's some tips you can offer. So it says I can offer based on my diagnosis, diagnose the root cause, find out why coworkers are in conflict with one another. Often the roots of the discord line, the things that occurred long ago, stay high and dry if the problem.

originated before you became manager, acknowledge hurt feelings, but don't take sides. You said diffuse the conflict by making cooperation mandatory, establish a no tolerance policy for disagreements over people and personalities. Hold everyone accountable. Find common ground. Get the conflict parties to identify shared values. Make it clear. The discord is destroying the value. Follow through even though people, even after people, stop fighting, continue monitoring the situation, et cetera. So that's pretty solid, John.

Hey, look at that.

John Baldoni (27:08.63)
Well, mean, it's all, what Mahesh Thakur has taught it to be is it reflects my voice. Have I written every one of those words? Maybe, probably. It sounds pretty accurate. Go back to it and let's do something else. If you want to, if you want to, we'll experiment. Say, write, okay, write, so in there.

Skot Waldron (27:23.933)
Okay, okay, okay, okay, cool. All right, let me pull it up.

No, no, let's do it. Let's do it. For all of you watching on YouTube, you got a gift here. let's do it.

John Baldoni (27:37.93)
write me a poem about resilience.

Skot Waldron (27:44.445)
What you're you're gonna I get to write you're gonna write me a poem

John Baldoni (27:51.062)
Well, I hope. We'll see what comes up.

Skot Waldron (27:52.393)
Well, we'll see. We'll see if it goes. Chatbot is thinking, do I spell resilience right? Is it E-N-C? my goodness, it is E-N-C and even despite my bad spelling. Okay, here's the poem about resilience. Bend, don't break. So you've never written this poem before, John. Okay, bend, don't break.

John Baldoni (28:01.42)
There it is. Look at that.

John Baldoni (28:12.864)
Nope. Well, I haven't used this prompt before. Yeah, this is actually published, but I didn't write this. The bot wrote this.

Skot Waldron (28:19.483)
Nice. Okay. When storms of life assail me, I stand resilient, tall. The winds may fiercely gale me, I will not fall. My roots grow deep within me. My limbs flex, but don't snap. Adversity can't win me. I bounce back from each wrap. With courage I recover, regain my rightful place. Tempered, I'm now tougher to life's blow I can face. So batter on, worldly woes.

Do your worst, I say, my resilience ever grows. Bend me down, I'll sway. You'll never find me broken. I'm pliant but still whole. Buffet me without token, my spirit you can't soul. For I'm resilient ever, you'll not make me crack. I'll bend and bend, never let you break my back. What do you think about, okay, let me ask you.

John Baldoni (29:13.858)
It's...

Skot Waldron (29:16.307)
What do you think about that, John?

John Baldoni (29:18.86)
Well, first of all, it's the kind of, it's my thinking. The expression is put into verse. So as I told you earlier, I'm interested in writing poetry. The poetry I write is not in this style. And would I tweak a word here or there? Of course I would. But what it is, it's kind of like Hallmark card advice. That's really what it is. And so I've actually, I'm actually experimenting with greeting cards with some of these things.

Skot Waldron (29:31.989)
Hmm?

Skot Waldron (29:43.183)
All right.

John Baldoni (29:48.212)
So yeah, it's what why I did this was on a whim. But what I'm trying to do is show the idea of creativity and leadership expression so that if this prompts somebody to borrow the thought and use it with their team. Fine. OK. But if it also borrows them to think, hey, I can be creative in how I pitch my ideas or how I express myself. Great. It's just another way to reach

Get my message out or get a message out for the you know other people can learn from it and know in different ways That's really what it's all about

Skot Waldron (30:27.669)
That is so fun. And I mean, I was wondering if it was written in your style, you know, if it was like written in John's poetry style, but it probably doesn't know that yet.

John Baldoni (30:34.078)
It's not the way I would write poetry. It's more, as I said, it's more Hallmark style, but the thinking is mine. So whatever that is. So I can't take credit for writing it. I take credit for the thought behind it. So think of it this way. I'm like creative director and I have an assistant who's my copywriter, which happens to be an AI copy.

Skot Waldron (30:46.324)
local.

Skot Waldron (30:52.98)
Yeah.

Skot Waldron (31:02.449)
And I, and I, I hope that people will listen to that and think of AI as that. A lot of people are like, AI is going to take this and AI is going to do that. And I said, AI still needs the creative direction. AI still needs for now, right? AI still needs that, that direction and that thing to go off of, cause it's still sourcing information from everywhere. and so it, I, if you use it to that, it's such a powerful resource.

I think people would need to embrace it in all aspects of life and what it's doing.

John Baldoni (31:31.842)
Right. And I'll tell the interior audience too, if you, have channel and I've even posted, I post regularly on LinkedIn, but I post some of the FAQs I've asked this. And just the other day I posted something about design a workshop on the topic of resilience. So it came up with some thoughts. So if you have to do a workshop on resilience, maybe these are some thoughts you can put, how you'd organize it and stuff like that. That's my perspective. It's a start, it's a thought starter for you.

Skot Waldron (32:02.953)
That it is, that it is. I love it, John. love it, man. so I wanted to hit on that. It didn't necessarily have to do with grace, but that's such a unique aspect and tool that you have come up with, to embody what you do as a leadership coach, as executive coach, as the person that goes into organizations. And now you're providing another resource for those that are listening or anywhere out in the world to go and get access to your brain.

without having to talk directly to you, which is pretty cool. like it. Where can people get a hold of your books? Where can people get a hold of you? Obviously if they want, they could just go to the chat bot, but you know, other than that, what else can people do?

John Baldoni (32:51.756)
Well, the best place to find me is johnbaldoni.com and you can send me an email at john at johnbaldoni or do it through the website or just remember john at johnbaldoni. All my books are on Amazon. So that's where they are both. Many of them are in Kindle or half of them are in or a good number of them are on Audible as well as paper, paperback and hardback. So it's there. Or you can also find them in used too. A lot of remainder books there.

Skot Waldron (33:16.213)
Cool.

Skot Waldron (33:19.81)
there you go. There you go. Is there, and you're out speaking a lot right now. Yeah.

John Baldoni (33:25.708)
I'm speaking, yes.

Skot Waldron (33:28.021)
Yeah. So people are interested in that. Go to your website. Cool. Yeah.

John Baldoni (33:31.296)
Yep. Thank you for that. Yeah. I speak, got a big event coming up next month. So I'm looking forward to that to an HR community. What do know?

Skot Waldron (33:38.943)
Cool. Nice. I love HR people. What's your key topic? What do you like to hit on most?

John Baldoni (33:47.052)
Well, believe it or not, I talked about the topic of grace under pressure, believe it or not. But I also talked about, I also talked about leading with influence, which leading from the middle, leading with purpose, book topics that I've done. But right now my top of mind topic is grace. That's what people want to hear from me. And I talk about it from the business standpoint, how you can make grace work for all of us together to stimulate that community.

Skot Waldron (33:51.483)
Really? Imagine that. Imagine that.

John Baldoni (34:17.044)
so we all get better results for ourselves because we feel that we belong, but also for the team and the organization.

Skot Waldron (34:24.179)
Love it. And if anybody wants to hear you play the piano, they can just go to your website and see you play there while they're also getting some leadership lessons. there's that too.

John Baldoni (34:32.192)
And I post something every Monday on LinkedIn. So you can check that. Or just do John Baldoni music. You'll find stuff.

Skot Waldron (34:43.807)
Very cool. Man. You are just like one thing after another, John, you don't stop.

John Baldoni (34:44.802)
That's for fun.

John Baldoni (34:49.122)
Well, I'll be very frank with you. I'm in the sunset of my career. I'm not... I got a few more laps around the corral here, but I'm having fun.

Skot Waldron (35:04.083)
Well, you should, you should be, and people need to be having fun in whatever they're doing. And if you're not, then you should reevaluate a couple of things because life is fun and life should be fun. And that's what we're doing. So thanks John for teaching us today and sharing your thoughts with us and your heart and your mind. And it's all been good. Thanks, man.

John Baldoni (35:24.674)
Well, Scott, you're a terrific interviewer and I love how you turned the card upside down. That was fun. So thank you.