Unlocking How To Say Less, Ask More, And Change The Way You Lead With Michael Bungay Stanier

Skot Waldron (00:00.425)
Anywhere afterwards, make sure it’s done uploading and all that stuff. If I get all glitzy, glitchy and whatever, it’s still doing its thing on your side and mine. letting it catch up here. yeah, yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier (00:00.642)
I agree. Yeah.

Let me, I do have one question. I’ve got two mics. This is my best audio mic and you get a big picture of a mic in the video. I’ve got a different mic that’s a little more discreet. Audio is not quite as good, but the video is better. Do you care?

Skot Waldron (00:31.389)
No, keep, keep, keep what you’re doing. no, I, I care about the audio more than I care about the video. Although I’m going to use.

Michael Bungay Stanier (00:33.262)
Alright. Yeah, most people do, but it’s like, all videos are kind of added bonus.

Skot Waldron (00:42.197)
Yeah, that’s way it is for me too. Like I’ve just, I’ve, I upload them to YouTube and have them there’s whatever, but yeah, audio is what I care about more. So, um, very cool. Well, I mean, we’re going to probably go, but I don’t know. 45 minute ish, whatever we do. Um, and, uh, then I’ll do an intro and outro after this. So you don’t need to worry about that. And yeah, man, I think that’s it. Just kind of.

Michael Bungay Stanier (00:49.292)
Yeah. Great.

What’s the difference between a great guest and a good guest for you?

Skot Waldron (01:20.341)
personable, which you are. Yeah, you could at least fake it. That’s good. That we can, I don’t know, I think it’s the energy when I can play off you, you can play off me well. I think it’s when you engage me and not just, I mean, of course you’re the poster child of the show and that’s fine.

Michael Bungay Stanier (01:22.926)
I can fake it at least. Thanks.

Skot Waldron (01:46.689)
but I think when you engage me as well in the conversation, it’s just more dynamic for me and I can feed off that energy a little bit better. So I totally, I totally dig that. I am not the kind of person that’s just going to say, okay, question one, bam question two, bam. You know, I am not that interviewer. so we’ll just kinda, I just want you to be able to give it back.

Michael Bungay Stanier (01:51.054)
Sure. Agreed. Yeah, I get that. Cool. Yeah. Yeah.

Feel free to take me down any rabbit holes that appeal. I’m happy to follow wherever you lead.

Skot Waldron (02:14.985)
That’s what I heard. I heard that, I was like, is there any questions I can ask that she like, just ask whatever you want, you know, like he will go there. he will go there. So, all right. Cool. Well, I am. I’m game rock this thing. If you’re game or rock this thing, we’re going to talk about the coaching habit. That was what y’all discussed as far as what you want to kind of feature on this show. but I.

Michael Bungay Stanier (02:23.22)
Yeah, exactly. Let’s plunge on in.

Let’s do it. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Skot Waldron (02:44.479)
Do want to hit on your new book as well. If you’re cool with that, when does the new one come out?

Michael Bungay Stanier (02:48.558)
Sure. Yeah, yeah, that’s great. Thank you.

Well, the new one came, it came out. Yeah, it came out. You know, I’m not even sure now, I think six months ago. So how to work with almost anyone. And in some ways, it’s, it kind of fits with the coaching habit and the advice traps, the coaching habit and the advice trap are kind of like sister books. The coaching habits that kind of the original big breakthrough book for me, the advice trap is meant to go a deeper dive in terms of how do you tame the damn advice monster because

Skot Waldron (02:55.369)
Or it came out already. Did it? Okay. Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier (03:23.872)
It’ll make coaching habits easy enough in theory, but in practice people still keep giving advice. So it’s a kind of deeper dive into behavior shift. And then how to work with almost anyone is almost a precursor to that. And that if you have a strong working relationship, you’re more likely to be able to be more coach like with that person.

Skot Waldron (03:43.601)
Hmm. let’s see. Kind of like backed into everything, right? So

Michael Bungay Stanier (03:47.374)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. know, often books tend to grow out of the book that you’ve written where you go, I can see this is what they like and this is what’s missing. So it kind of blossoms from within the book itself.

Skot Waldron (03:56.969)
Yeah. Okay, cool. Awesome, man. Love it. Okay. Well, I do, I do want to hit on that a little bit too. the, show is targeted at people leaders, and whatnot. Now I am a part of a big network of coaches, where I think, you know, just me being a coach and being a speaker and whatnot. This, I mean, the book is been brilliant for me, right? Just to be able to kind of tap into that. So it’s been really good. so I want to make sure I can get it to, I’ll get it to that network as well. so very cool. All right. let’s do it. You’re ready. Now I, you go by MBS.

Michael Bungay Stanier (04:30.84)
Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, great. Thank you. I’m so ready.

You know but Michael’s fine as well. I mean I created MBS as a kind of like just make it easier for people to say my slightly complicated name but Michael Bungay Stanya and Michael or MBS whatever you want.

Skot Waldron (04:51.273)
Michael’s fine as well. Okay.

A brand. 

Okay. And it’s Bungay Standier. Okay.

Michael Bungay Stanier (05:06.786)
Bungay Stenya, yeah. Just accelerate through it.

Skot Waldron (05:10.709)
Okay. All right, man. Okay. Very cool. Here we go.

Michael Bungay Stanier (05:12.512)
Yeah, you got it. Something like that.

Skot Waldron (05:20.637)
Michael, I’ve been waiting for the show for long time and now you’re here, man. This is so fun. You know how many people have said that to me? I get it all. I’m just kidding. I don’t get that all the time. Man, that’s so cool.

Michael Bungay Stanier (05:24.158)
I’ve been waiting this show my whole life Skot, my whole life. Finally, finally you invited me. mean, honestly, what does it take 10 years, 15 years waiting?

Skot Waldron (05:44.637)
I’m looking forward to, I was looking forward to having Simon Sinek on the show, but then I said, hold on, you’re Simon Sinek, but funnier. So I, that’s what I hear though, right?

Michael Bungay Stanier (05:50.606)
Mmm. Well, that’s one of my favorite pieces of audience feedback I got like Simon Sinek, but funnier. I’m like, there’s so much, there’s so much I like about that. You know, I kind of get all the aura of Simon Sinek’s kind of stuff. I don’t have his British accent, although I have a slightly odd accent. But you know, secretly, I just want to be a comedian, but the pay is lousy if you’re a comedian. So, whereas if you’re a keynote speaker who’s vaguely funny at times, people think you’re…

Skot Waldron (06:07.797)
You. Mm-hmm. It totally is,

Michael Bungay Stanier (06:29.59)
You’re a legend. So yes, I’m in cynic, but funny. So my whole identity, but I’ll take it as a sound bite.

Skot Waldron (06:31.466)
That’s it. You know what, in life, the fact that it’s really short and punchy makes it the perfect testimonial for you.

Michael Bungay Stanier (06:44.554)
Exactly. was like, man, that is classic. I’m running with that for the rest of my life.

Skot Waldron (06:50.085)
Just do it. Is that how you introduce yourself to everybody?

Michael Bungay Stanier (06:53.314)
I don’t, I do not do that. It lingers on my speaking page, I think is a way of encouraging people to hire me. yeah. Yeah. Well, here’s the thing about introductions. You know, and I’m now old enough and I’ve had just enough success. I’ve got just enough status in the world that some people have heard of me.

Skot Waldron (06:58.451)
Okay. Okay, well, maybe you should think about that. Maybe you should think about that’s your intro, you know, to people.

Michael Bungay Stanier (07:19.118)
But I know about you when I go and see a conference or even at a podcast and people read out their, their bios, I find mostly it’s this combination of, mean, both intimidated and bored at the same time. Right. There’s like, they’re listing all the things I’ve ever achieved. It’s like, I got a bronze medal in the under 12, you know, freestyle 50 meter race. And it’s just all these things. And at the same time, it’s all about bigging up the person rather than inviting me as somebody in the audience to be part of it. So when people introduce me as kind of a speaking thing with something like that, I get them to say things like Michael was banned from his high school graduation for the balloon incident. Michael left university being sued by one of his law school professors for defamation. Michael’s first published bit of writing was a Mills and Boone Harlequin romance short story called The Mail Delivery.

I’m doing all I can to kind of lower my status and have people laugh in part because I show up with a lot of status. You know, I’m like old white male successful author, road scholar, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I’ve got a whole bunch of shiny things on my resume, but I’m, if I’m in service to an audience, I don’t want to keep hammering home that the fact that I’m better than in inverted commas, want them know that I’m human. And then what better way of kind of connecting with an audience is to make them laugh at you. And if you have the sort of self-esteem and the confidence to do that, and I was born with confidence, which is a lucky wiring kind of quirk, I’m like, no, let’s, and Simon’s saying about funnier, people actually kind of laugh at that. And that’s actually the secret of that as a blurb.

Skot Waldron (09:13.845)
Hmm. That’s good, man. Cause I think that, uh, what you’re talking about is if I’m going to tie this into the leadership thing, cause that’s what we talk about a lot, right? And just communication strategy in general. Uh, when people walk into the room and they have this idea of. Like I’ve got to present myself in a way that makes me look, you know, competent, that makes you look credible. That makes me look like.

Michael Bungay Stanier (09:38.838)
Mm-hmm.

Skot Waldron (09:43.175)
Likeable that let you see, look, all these things or else people aren’t going to listen to me. You know, so there’s that fear that we call self-preservation that kind of taps into that, whole thing. tell me how you’re, let me throw that at you. Like, tell me how your strategy, it kind of goes against that in a way. What, what are you doing there?

Michael Bungay Stanier (09:47.372)
Well, yeah. Right.

Yeah, well, what I think about, because in there depends on the context, depends on who I am, it depends who the audience is, it depends on what the moment is. But the framework I’m always using is, and this is in the Coaching Habit book, the neuroscience of engagement. So let me, I’m going to give it like, this is a five minute little teaching piece just to give people a framework. So the first thing you need to know is that everybody’s brains five times a second at an unconscious level is going, is it safe here or is it dangerous? Safe or dangerous? Safe or dangerous? People listening to this podcast right now, their brains are having exactly that same kind of scanning because if it’s safe, they want to step forward and engage. And if it’s dangerous, they want to back away and opt out. And it’s not even a fair question because the brain heavily waits to, if I’m not sure, I’m just going to assume it’s dangerous.

Because the brain’s job is to keep the meat sack that carries it around alive as long as possible. So there’s every chance for DNA to continue to spread. So the brain’s like, I’ve just got to keep this thing alive. And so as it scans the environment, it’s like, is it safe here or is it dangerous? And because of our evolution, because the DNA that we’ve inherited from our ancestors are from the people who didn’t walk into the dark cave they’re like, it could be good in there, but maybe it’s a bit risky. We’re kind of wired to assume it’s dangerous. So as a people leader, as a coach, as a human being, as a speaker, you’re actually your job is to keep going. How do I keep people feeling that it’s safe here? How do I keep them leaning in? Because when they lean in, I get the best of them. I get them being more comfortable with ambiguity. I get them bringing their best. I get them better able to see possibilities. If they’re feeling stressed, their vision narrows, breath titles, little amygdala fight flight, fawn or faint kind of plays up. So you’re trying to make it safe. And there are four drivers that influenced whether the brain feels safe or dangerous. And it spells the word TERA. So these four, this acronym stands for tribe expectation, rank and autonomy. So tribe

The brain is going, are you with me or are you against me? So one of the reasons I get people to laugh at me as fast as possible is that when a group laughs, it becomes a group. One of the reasons that even if I’m giving a keynote in speed of, 5,000 people, I stand by a door and I shake as many hands as possible is a moment of touch is a moment of connection is a moment of tribiness. So I’m doing all I can constantly going, how do I increase the sense of tribiness in this room? Whether it’s a meeting of three people or a meeting of 3000 people. Expectation, the brain is going, do I know what’s about to happen or do I not know? If it knows it feels safer, if it doesn’t know it feels more nervous. So expectation is an interesting one because you’re trying to make sure that people feel they know enough to feel comfortable.

But you also want to disrupt expectations just a bit so that they feel like, I’ve got to pay attention here. So for instance, when I’m giving a, if you look at my TED Talks, I’ve got a couple of TEDx Talks, you see me using a flip chart to deliver the stuff. And then part of that is I’m breaking expectations because most TED Talks have kind of polished slides or maybe no slides at all. There aren’t many with flip charts. So that’s just a small way where I disrupt expectations.

When I started keynote speech within the first minute and a half, I have an audience up and talking to itself. Everyone’s like, well, that’s weird. That doesn’t normally happen in the keynote speech. I’m like, yeah, I’m creating tribiness and I’m disrupting expectations. The third driver is rank. And the brain is asking, are you more or less important than me? And it feels more comfortable if it’s more important than you, less comfortable if it’s less important than you. So

This is a nuanced one, Skot, because what you’re doing is you’re playing with your own status, your own rank to try and raise other people’s rank around you. And depending on who you are is how much you’ve got to play with. Like, as I said before, I show up with a lot of status in many rooms because I’m getting old. I’ve got all the kind of the key cards of the patriarchy. I’ve got books.

I’ve got awards, I’ve got blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. So I’m spending a lot of time trying to lower my status because it raises other people’s status. So in that introduction, I’m lowering myself and other people are feeling better about that. One of the most powerful ways of raising somebody’s rank, somebody’s status is to ask them a question rather than giving them advice.

And I know that’s going to tie into all of that conversations around the coaching habit and the power of coaching and the like. It’s one of the, it’s one of the less understood insights around why coaching is such a powerful leadership tool is that it raises the status and authority of the person who’s being asked the question. and then the final driver is autonomy and the brain’s going, are you giving me some choices here or are you making all the choices for me? And, people like to have autonomy. like to have some choice. So I’m constantly in any experience going, how much decision-making can I give the group? And how much do I need to maintain for myself? So typically in experience, I’m like, I’m going to start us and I’m going to make sure we finish on time or a little bit earlier. That’s expectation. And I know that we need to cover A, B and C in this time. Then I am constantly giving the group choices around little things to make who they team up with what they talk about because I’m raising that sense of autonomy. So my goal in any context is to be thinking about and raising the tarot quotient so that people stay more engaged longer.

Skot Waldron (16:30.749)
I dig it, dig it. can, okay. can hear this in the sense of a speech presentation. what not tell me how I use this. Say I am a.

Michael Bungay Stanier (16:41.901)
Yeah.

Skot Waldron (16:47.495)
Executive vice president of something and I’m having a talk with a director level manager level person about something. Tell me how I would use the Terra. How would I raise the Terra quotient in that scenario using your four points?

Michael Bungay Stanier (16:57.464)
Yeah. Right.

Perfect. So you got a thing to talk about it. I’m the EVP, I’m Michael, I’m talking to Skot, some miscellaneous junior person. So first thing I go is like, Skot, we’ve got to talk about this thing. Clear expectation. When’s going to be most useful for you? Do you want to do it this afternoon? Do you want to do it tomorrow morning or do you want to do it tomorrow afternoon? Those are the windows I’ve got. I’m giving you autonomy. I’m giving you some choices there want to do it in my office? Do you want to do it by Zoom or should we go for a walk together? Oh, okay, great. So we’ll do it. We’ll go for a walk together. Or no, come into my office. We’ll pretend we’re working at home. So now you’ve already made some choices. And I’m like, we’re going to have 25 minutes. And here’s the key thing we want to talk about. And here’s the key decision we want to make. So now you’re like, oh, I know what this meeting is about. I’m not freaking out. Because if you’ve been summoned to the EVP’s office, you’re going.

What the hell? What’s going to happen? It’s like, come to my office Skot, I’ve got some feedback for you. You’re like, man, I’m in trouble. Whereas like, I’m like, Skot, I’m to talk about this. I’m excited about what’s happening, but we’ve got to make a decision around this. And that’s what I want to talk to you about. It’s going to take us 25 minutes. So real expectation setting there. You come into my office. I’m like, great. Now I’ve got some choices. Do I stay behind my desk and have you on the other side of the desk?

Do I move a chair so that we’re sitting kitty cornered on the desk together? Do I go and sit in the two comfortable chairs in the corner? And so we’re sort of sitting on comfortable chairs together. So now I’m physically maneuvering the environment to play with rank. If I stand behind my desk and make you sit there, perhaps on a slightly lower chair than I’m on, I’m just really asserting my rank and my authority. If I move us to chairs at the same height, we’re sitting kitty-cornered or next to each other or anything. I’ve raised your rank. Now I could start in going, all right glad you’re here Skot, let me tell you what’s going on. Or I could go, Skot I know you’ve taken the lead on this project, tell me give me a quick summary of what’s going on and tell me what the real challenge is here for you. So now I’m moving into coaching mode. I’m not saying, I’m coaching you, I’m just being more coach like, I’m just staying curious a little bit longer. And now rather than giving you advice and guidance and indeed setting the agenda, I’m inviting you to figure some of that stuff out. So I’m raising your rank and I’m raising your status and I’m the tribiness. And then I might be going, so what do we need to do to figure out how to best solve this. So now I’m using the word we instead of you. So that’s a tribiness thing. And then when we finish, I’m gonna stand up, I’m gonna walk you to the door and I’m gonna tap you on the shoulder or shake your hand or give you a hug. It depends on the culture of the thing. Cause that connection, that physical connection is a tribiness piece as well. I might finish the session by going, Skot, before you go, tell me what was most useful and most valuable for you.

The final, the learning question from the coaching habit book. And then I might answer it myself. Let me tell you Skot, what was most useful and most valuable for me too, because now there’s an equality in the room. There’s a reason you rank, cause I’m like not just making you answer questions, but I’m answering the questions myself. So there’s lots of little things you can do. You’re constantly playing with nuance to kind of raise the tribunus you’re balancing the tensions within the model. That’s why I like this model, this tension in it, because increasing expectation often lowers autonomy. Skot, I want you to sit in that chair there. High expectation, lower autonomy. So I’m constantly making choices around which one of those cards I want to play because I’m trying to increase the overall tarot quotient.

Skot Waldron (21:18.421)
That is good. You’ve done this before. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier (21:21.302)
I have, I mean, I think about this all the time and I think about it because I run meetings and I design keynotes and I design training and I write books and this tarot quotient is throughout all of those experiences because it allows me to be in service of the people I’m trying to learn. And it means a constant, I mean, one of the interesting things, for instance, and this gets to coaching as well.

Skot Waldron (21:26.837)
Hmm.

Michael Bungay Stanier (21:50.016)
It’s one of the deeper reasons why people resist coaching is that coaching is an empowering act. You don’t typically find particularly people leaders going, I’m against empowerment. mean, most people are like, you know, I’m going to tell you I’m pro empowerment. But in the act of empowerment, it is a moment of you giving up some of your power to the other person. So part of why people resist coaching is it’s just a lot more comfortable to give advice.

When I ask you a question, Skot, what’s the real challenge here for you? There’s this moment where I go, I don’t know what Skot’s going to say. Does he understand the question? What if his answer is ludicrous and madness? What if I don’t understand his answer? What if we disagree? What if there’s all these moments where you’re like, I don’t know how this is going to play out.

And so you’re in a place of ambiguity and uncertainty and your brain likes expectations. Your brain likes clarity around that. So the act of coaching goes against some of your deeper biological wirings because it’s staying curious a little bit longer and rushing to action and advice giving more slowly than you’re wired to doing. And your brain loves action and advice giving because it raises authority and rank and status and expectation look like doing stuff. So we’re really clear about what we’re doing here.

Skot Waldron (23:30.175)
Can I, so in the coaching habit, I mean, we, talk about these principles, the tarot principles in there. We’ve hit it, The expectation is that we don’t know where this is going to go. That’s the expectation. You know, so, there’s there. Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier (23:35.854)
We’ve already broken expectations because before we hit go, we’re going to talk about these things and we’ve just spent 20 minutes talking about something completely different. Nailed it.

Right. Hey, Skot, let me ask you, if I can, out of all of that, because I’ve just been monologuing a bit, what’s the key takeaway for you in that? What’s kind of making you go, this is what I want to remember?

Skot Waldron (24:01.011)
Well, I will tell you it is the rank thing. I, that I think is play plays out. I’ve been preaching a lot of this too, lately. and, and it is a little bit different when we’re in a, in a virtual environment versus a physical one where I can like sit on one side of the desk versus you on the other side of the desk. That has come up quite a bit with some people. I will tell you that, that the rank, the privilege,

Michael Bungay Stanier (24:22.36)
Yeah.

Skot Waldron (24:30.099)
The white male stereotype, the gender roles that are playing, all those things that are playing out in our culture right now are all what we’re talking about rank, right? It’s not just title. And I think that when we understand that as a culture, that there’s gonna be that, and I think people are starting to understand it more.

Michael Bungay Stanier (24:46.158)
That’s right.

Skot Waldron (24:54.303)
But I think, I think we need to be really careful with it and understanding what it means and also what it doesn’t mean. Now I know that there are some people like myself, a white middle-aged male with, with gray hair and you know, a book who’s, you know, only five, seven, although I look way more muscular and taller on video. Yes, I do. Can you tell on, can you tell me?

Michael Bungay Stanier (25:14.082)
You have you have ridiculously smooth skin though. So you know, you’ve got that balancing out. Yeah, I can tell you have a you have a hardcore moisturizing routine. I can tell that.

Skot Waldron (25:21.909)
Oh, it’s so good. It’s so good. Um, but I sit there and I think about like, I, I get afraid of my own privilege, right? I sit there and I’m like, Oh, how much should I step into this? How much is rank playing out in this role that I’m doing right now, even at home or in society or whatever, right? I try, I’m just so sensitive that I might be pulling back too much. And so I just, it’s always a delicate balance. I just want people to be aware of where they sit in that spectrum, you know?

Michael Bungay Stanier (25:51.374)
Well, it’s a choice of acts of leadership. So Daniel Goldman, who, if you know that name, you might know him as a person who can really popularize the idea of emotional intelligence. He didn’t really come up with it, but he certainly amplified it. So people got to understand it. And 25 years ago now, year 2000, he wrote an article in the Harvard Business Review called Leadership That Gets Results. He said look there are six different styles of leadership this is based on research across different countries different levels different sectors and each one has its place each one has prizes and punishments now i got into this because one of the six types of leadership is coaching and in the article Goldman says look coaching is really underutilized even though it has a really clear impact on both culture and bottom line profitability. So culture and strategy, the the twin DNA of a successful organization. But people are like, it’s a bit weird. It takes too long along there. So I was kind of driven by that. But the bigger picture is this. Most leaders have one or two of those six leadership styles that they use. Great leaders use all six. So there is a time to be coach like, and there is a time to be democratic. And there is a time to be clear and decision based.

They all have their moments. And it is true that, you know, there’s a way that you can go, look, I’ve got privilege. So I’ve got to kind of step back and disappear. But it’s, for me, it’s like, how do I use what I have in service of the goals that we have and the people with whom I work? And there are times when authority and clarity and making decisions and being clear and stepping forward into the spotlight is what’s required. And there are times where stepping out of the spotlight and inviting others into the spotlight is what’s required. And there’s no, there’s no generic answer to any of that. It’s I do have the emotional intelligence, let’s call it that to actually see the choices that are there and go what serves this group and this and my bigger goals best in this moment.

Skot Waldron (28:11.645)
I that’s the goal. And I can’t do that when I’m living in fear because when I’m living in fear, all I’m thinking about is myself.

Michael Bungay Stanier (28:19.116)
Right. Yeah, which can have you staying in the spotlight too long. I need to stay in control or staying out of the spotlight too long. need to hide.

Skot Waldron (28:32.223)
Hmm, that’s that’s good. There’s a I actually just use it all here. First, let me show you this lovely piece of paper. You see this, so I resolve you that I can’t see this. It’s a seven essential questions that I printed out and I often have it sitting on my desk. I seriously have it sitting here and I see the MBS dot works logo all the time. So you’re you’re top of mind for me.

Michael Bungay Stanier (28:42.35)
I love that. I do see that. Thank you. That’s great.

Skot Waldron (29:00.297)
Cause I use it in my own coaching. Like I’ll, I’ll, I’ll kind of reference it and say, where’s, what’s the question I should be asking now? What’s the question I should be asking now? And, and so I go to that. I go to that often, man. So thank you for the gold. I just want to say that. But, the book I also have, and I finished it before we got introduced and I was like, my gosh, I get the privilege of, of interviewing you and talking about this idea, because I just used this line with.

Michael Bungay Stanier (29:10.476)
I love hearing that Skot, thank you. Yeah, yeah.

Skot Waldron (29:30.515)
somebody I was coaching this morning, that the difference between the fire and the person who’s trying to put out the fire, right? It’s, talking about from performance to development and how do we move from performance based leadership to development based leadership and in that style and this culture, that we’re addressing is so about putting out fires. They’re just put out the fire, put out the fire, put out the fire, put out the fire.

Michael Bungay Stanier (29:40.13)
Right.

Skot Waldron (30:00.341)
And, they don’t ever do. I tend, I tend to think that they aren’t doing enough to invest in the people. To put out the fires. Right. So tell me about that.

Michael Bungay Stanier (30:11.106)
Yeah, sure. So, you know, in the coaching world, there’s these two kind of slightly jargony descriptions, coaching for performance and coaching for development, you coaching for performance deal with the fire. Whatever, whatever’s happening with the fire, put it out, build it up, bank it, whatever coaching development, develop your people. And in fact, they they should coexist. And cause you don’t want to just go, look, we’re going to remove this person from the context of their life and develop them. That doesn’t kind of make sense. But if all you’re doing is putting out fires and you’re not growing your people, then you’re, you’re not really investing in the culture element of your organization. And, you know, Peter Drucker never said culture eats strategy for breakfast, but you know, people think he did, but no, exactly. But.

Skot Waldron (31:03.295)
Don’t crush my soul! Don’t cr- Michael, come on, man!

Michael Bungay Stanier (31:07.8)
Culture and strategy, I think of them as just the twin DNA, which is like, you need a great strategy to differentiate yourself, but you want your very best people showing up in their best full potential selves to be working on the stuff that matters most. And that’s part of the power of coaching is it helps you both figure out what needs to be worked on, but also how to bring out the best in the people so that they get to work on that. And specifically, this works with the focus question, which is the third question in the book, think. And that question is, what’s the real challenge here for you? And of all the questions, this is the one where the scripting is perhaps most precise and most kind of technical. Because when you ask what’s the challenge here, you’re entirely focused on the fire. It’s like, it’s the fire. When you go, what’s the real challenge here? Then you’re like, but what about the fire?

And already that’s a better question. can feel it. What’s the real challenge here? Because now it says, look, I want you to think, because this is why you coach, this is why you ask a question. You want them to make new neural connections in their brain. You want them to go, oh, they kind of look up to the ceiling as they’re trying to figure that out. What is the real challenge here? Because then you’re building capacity and confidence and strategy and insight in that person. So that’s already a better question, but you’re still focused on the fire.

When you go, what’s the real challenge here for you? Suddenly you move the spotlight from the fire to the person who’s dealing with the fire. You’re not ignoring the fire. The fire is still there. But now that person is seeing themselves as part of the system, part of the challenge, which is like, yeah, but what’s hard for you in this moment in dealing with whatever we have to deal with with the fire. And suddenly now you’re both having the person gain some insight about who they are and what they’re up to and what’s hard for them. And you’re still figuring out how to deal with the fire. So, you know, for people listening, the takeaway for this is the more you can add something like for you on the end of a question, it doesn’t diminish the power of the question, but it allows that person to be to see themselves as part of what’s going on and learn and develop.

Grow from that. So yeah, what’s hard about this? What’s hard about this for you? What’s the real challenge here for you? What’s on your mind? What do you need to say yes to so you can say no to that? What do you need to say no to so you can say yes to this? All these questions are framed to be personal, not abstract and theoretical. And one of the most powerful demonstrative demonstration coaching things I’ve ever done was with the the EVP of sales for Microsoft in Las Vegas. We were in front of like 5000 sales folks as their annual conference. And JP’s talked about this so I can I can share this as well. He’s like he was old school Microsoft. He came under Steve Barmer. He’s kind of like a hard driving guy.

But he had moved on in, he’d stayed on under Sachin Nadella and Sachin Nadella was trying to shift the culture from a know-it-all culture to a learn-it-all culture. And so we’re doing this demo of coaching in front of all these people. We hadn’t done any rehearsal. It just kind of, it’s a real coaching session. And I go, so JP, what’s on your, what’s on your mind? And he gave me this classic EVP, high level, abstract, we need to do this, we need to do that. I’m like, yeah, but what’s the challenge here for you, JP? He’s like.

And he gave me exactly the same answer. I’m like, yeah, but for you, what’s the challenge? He’s like, and still resisted that. And it was like five times. I’m like, yeah, but for you, JP, what is the challenge here for you? And when he got there, changed everything. He’s like, I’ve got to learn how to trust people a little more and step back so they have a greater sense of freedom and autonomy. And you could just feel the room move. And people still talk to him and me about that, like, five or six years later. It’s a really powerful insight. Add for you onto your questions and it makes the questions more powerful, more personal, and it still solves the problems that you’re facing.

Skot Waldron (35:37.577)
But that is a brilliant question and I’ve used it so many times in the under, cause they’ll go on rants. People will just rant. They’ll just go on this and why this is a thing and what’s happening here and why this is going on. And you want to almost jump in and help them solve the fire, right? You just want to say, I’ve got advice for you right now. Advice monster comes in, right? And I want to be able to just.

Michael Bungay Stanier (35:58.68)
So much. Yeah. Yeah.

Skot Waldron (36:06.175)
tackle that problem for you. Cause if you solve the problem, you’ll get the immediate gratification of that problem being solved. But if I can go deeper and understand the root cause of why that’s even bothering you in the first place, right? And then we’re getting into a whole new realm, a whole new level comes out. Cause anybody can help solve the problem, but how do I solve the problem for you is a big deal.

Michael Bungay Stanier (36:11.159)
Yeah. And the real bonus is often when people figure out what the real challenge is for them, they don’t need any help solving the problem. They know what needs to be done. Often they’re like, if that’s the real challenge, can we just wrap this conversation up now? Because I’ve got stuff I need to go out and do because there’s, you know, I always say coaching stay curious longer rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly. It’s not saying never give advice, which is part of the baggage that comes with coaching. I can only ask questions. can’t tell anybody anything. And I’m like, no, no, that’s that whole Daniel Goleman. There’s appropriate moments for telling people stuff. But the longer you can resist giving advice, and the more you can make them work and figure out the answer for themselves.

The smarter they become, the more autonomous they become, the more self-sufficient they become, the more confident they become. And that is only good for them. And it is only good for you because they will bother you less if they’re all of those other things. And there is a place for sure when they come up with their best ideas and you’re like, I love all of these, that’s great. Here’s one or two other ideas I’ve got, which you might want to think about as well. You still bring your expertise to the table. You just… slow down the rush to give advice.

Skot Waldron (37:57.013)
Because how long does it take to interrupt on the average? Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stanier (38:00.718)
I think it was like 17 seconds or something. That’s the typical, uh, interruption a GP does to their patients. And I’ve always thought that was unfair to GPs because that’s true for most of us. We’re just like, Oh good. I can interrupt you.

Skot Waldron (38:12.081)
I know, I know. Yeah, exactly. hold on, listen to me for a second. got it. Yeah. So, it’s all that, but yeah, out of, these questions that the what’s, what’s the real problem here for you or the real challenge here for you is really, really good. The what else question. I know you dig into that one too. I know that you dig into the what else, quite often too, as far as, okay, so what else.

Michael Bungay Stanier (38:18.659)
Yeah. I do. Well, what do you like? What do you like about that? I why does that question work for you?

Skot Waldron (38:39.893)
Because I think it pushes people. think it’s a, because, know, back in my former life of doing a lot of brand strategy for, for corporations all over the world, it was almost going into and looking into why the Y question of the purpose of why are you doing this? Why is that important for you? Or what is it about that? That makes that important for you? Um, I know some people shy away from the Y thing because people get defensive.

Michael Bungay Stanier (38:55.49)
Yeah. They do, Yeah, there’s a place for it.

Skot Waldron (39:06.741)
I get that, but in this context, it was like digging deeper. Okay. So tell me, tell me why there’s that’s important to you or why is this? So it digs deeper and deeper, deeper. When you ask people what else they get past the surface level stuff of the immediate pain and they start to think into, well, maybe it’s this or okay. It’s this and oh, it’s this too. And then you, then you start to go, okay, what’s the real problem there for you? We’re like…

Michael Bungay Stanier (39:13.335)
Yeah. Mmm.

Skot Waldron (39:36.341)
But that takes listening, right? That takes listening.

Michael Bungay Stanier (39:39.054)
Indeed. Yeah. I mean, I love what else the the and what else question. First of all, I love the moment where I discovered there was the acronym for that was or AWE. I was like, that’s so perfect. Speaking of kind of branding, it was like, great. But the key insight for me is their first answer is almost never their only answer. And it’s rarely their best answer. So don’t be seduced into thinking that just because they’ve answered your question, they’ve answered your question. No, no, no, they’ve just given you their first answer.

Skot Waldron (39:50.121)
That is so good, so good.

Michael Bungay Stanier (40:09.666)
The second thing that’s really powerful about and what else is the most effective way to tame your advice monster. So you mentioned that in passing before Skot, you your advice monster is that part of you that looms up out of the dark and says, I’m going to add some value to this conversation. As soon as they start talking, we are so driven, so wired to want to give advice. You know, it’s like, it’s more comfortable. We’ve been doing it for our whole lifetime. And part of what opens up being more coach like is this ability to slow down the rush to advice, taming your advice monster. And when you feel that desperate need to give somebody some advice, one of the ways you can just delay it for a little bit longer is to go, but what else? What else is hard about this for you? What else do you need to say no to? What else do you want? What else is on your mind? Every question that’s in the coaching habit book can be repeated by going, what else?

And the magic is that people don’t even hear you asking it. Because one of the anxieties people have about all of this stuff is they’re like, I can’t just ask five questions and pretend that I’m adding value. They’ll see right through me. They’re like, is that’s all you got five questions? But the truth is when you’re asking good questions.

They’re not really sitting there going, all you’re doing is asking me questions. What they’re doing, they’re in the land of the answer. They’re trying to figure out the answer to that. And so even as you ask, what else, well, and what else, and is there anything else? Even as you sit there with the slight uncertainty and ambiguity that we talked about before, which is like, what if there’s nothing else? What if they’re like, stop asking me that stupid question? Actually, what’s happening is they’re really working hard on the other side. And that is perfect for them and it is perfect for you.

Skot Waldron (42:10.997)
Cause I know cause what you’re talking about is fear and that’s that can hold me back from being the best coach I can be. and in the experience for the person, cause I’m not thinking about you anymore. I’m thinking about me. I’m thinking about, no, I’ll sound canned or I’ll sound like that’s all I have. And I’ll sound like I don’t have, if I give advice and I’m offering value question mark, but I think are quotes, right? think the idea here is like. When the real value comes in those aha moments, when they’re

Michael Bungay Stanier (42:23.596)
I love that. That’s it.

Michael Bungay Stanier (42:39.95)
Mm hmm. Yeah, that’s it. That is it. Skot. I mean, the language I use around coaching the relationship I tell people I coach I want to have with them is one of fierce love. And I say love because I’m like, I just want to I want to want the very best for you. I want you to be and do all the stuff you want to be.

Skot Waldron (42:40.277)
Brain lights up and they go, bam, nailed it, ma’am nailed it.

Michael Bungay Stanier (43:07.538)
I want to I want to keep seeing the best of you. I want to assume positive intent. want to kind of like, just be there for you. And the fierceness is for me, which is like, so Michael, don’t wimp out on that. Don’t let your various anxieties and fears and uncertainties and doubts and need to protect yourself get in the way of that you need to have a fierceness about how you show up so that you ask the hard question, you shut up and get out of the way, you provoke and push them when they need to be provoked and push you envelop them when they need to be hugged. It’s like show up and do your job to bring out the very best in that person. And that means stop kidding. I I, I’ve spent a lot of my coaching career colluding with myself to kind of like the reason I’m doing this is for their sake. And I’m like, no, no, the reason I’m doing this is for my sake to make me feel better or safer or less exposed in some way. But when I remember fierce love, gives me most of the time the courage to do the thing that really needs to be done.

Skot Waldron (44:20.565)
That’s good. had a Stephen Faber on my show a little while ago wrote, you know, love is just damn good business. Um, and talked about it it was, it was really good. Uh, just talked about the concept of love and how we can use that idea and the principle in business to, make, make sure we’re making progress. Um, there’s so many other things I want to talk about. wanted to talk about the drama triangle with you. Um, but, but we’re not going to get to that.

Michael Bungay Stanier (44:28.43)
That’s right. Yeah.

Skot Waldron (44:47.273)
today people have to get the book if they want the coaching habit. It’s really easy to read y’all. It’s really easy to read. but there’s some gold in there for sure. In fact, it’s the best selling coaching book of the century, Michael. And I hope it’s the next century’s best selling coaching book too.

Michael Bungay Stanier (44:58.624)
I know. Well, mean, the, I don’t sure if you know this story. I mean, this got turned down five or six times by a publisher. So I self published it. So I, I feel particularly smug about it now having sold a million and a half copies or something like that.

Skot Waldron (45:10.834)
Really? My gosh. Did you, did you send a letter to all the publishers that rejected it and you’re not that guy though. You’re not that guy. Yeah. Okay.

Michael Bungay Stanier (45:19.822)
I did I believe me I thought I thought about it and then I’m like Michael try and try and hold the higher ground here. But I but I felt pretty pretty good about the fact that they turned me down after five years of me pitching this idea to them and I’m like, damn it, I’m gonna do it anyway.

Skot Waldron (45:28.37)
Okay. Do it, man. Okay, well then did you get them to publish your new book? Tell us about that one.

Michael Bungay Stanier (45:41.59)
I didn’t. Well, the new book, so I hybrid published mine. So I have a publishing partner that allows me to kind of control the experience of the book and the brand and all of that. But they bring all the publishing expertise that I want. The new book is called How to Work with Almost Anyone. My best title. This is the best title I’ve ever come up with because I love it because everybody immediately laughs and they’re like, I know who my almost people are who I can never work with. But the key insight around this, Skot, is our working relationships determine our happiness and our success and work to a great extent. And most of us don’t do much about that. Most of us just cross our fingers and we hope for the best, rather than actively shaping the working relationships. Not all working relationships can be perfect and shiny and, you know, unicorn dancing through flowery fields burping up rainbows. But every of one of your key relationships, that influence your success and your happiness can be a BPR, best possible relationship. So your goal is to try and make that relationship the best version of itself. So you want the great ones to be greater longer, the good ones to have more magic to them and the bad ones to suck less. And the strategy behind that is something called a keystone conversation which is simply a conversation about how we work together before we get into the work itself. But most conversations we have with people at work are about the work. We’re like, let’s crack on with it. I mean, we’ve got this meeting. What’s the challenge? What are we up for? But if I was to start working with you, I’m like, before we get into the challenge you’ve got, Skot, what does it mean? Tell me about when you’ve had a really brilliant working relationship somebody like me. And tell me when you’ve had a terrible working relationship with somebody like me. And let me tell you the best and the worst of the working relationships that I have. So in the How to Work with Almost Anyone book, there are five questions to ask and answer so that you can trade information and give the two of you the best possible chance of shaping a BPR, best possible relationship.

Skot Waldron (48:02.904)
My gosh. Does it work for marriages?

Michael Bungay Stanier (48:04.91)
It does work for marriages. I drew on and I read a lot and I know a bunch of the kind of the big thinkers in that space. So that like the Gottmans, for instance, and Esther Perel and Terry Real and Dan Siegel. But I’m not I mean, I’ve been I’m about to celebrate 30 years married. So I’ve had a one hit one great success with marriage, but I wouldn’t call myself fair marriage expert, but it definitely draws on lot of the wisdom, including this piece. This is the number that will blow people’s mind. It comes from the Gottmans. Now, John Gottman and his wife, his first name I’ve forgotten embarrassingly, they founded the Gottman Institute, and they’re best known for a book called The Seven Secrets of a Successful Marriage, which is a fantastically good book. Really research based, really practical, really grounded.

But the statistic which comes from somewhere else is this. % of issues in a relationship are perpetual. They don’t get to get solved. And like some people are like, oh man, that’s terrible news. I that’s great news. And here’s why. Stop trying to fix and solve the 69 % because they are perpetual. They don’t get fixed.

You have to learn to cohabit with that dynamic, which will be unchanging. My wife likes to say no to everything. I like to say yes to everything. It’s taken us 30 years to figure out how we play with that. She’s never going to change. She’s wired like that. I’m never going to change. I’m wired like that. It’s a perpetual thing. So stop trying to solve the 69 % and work hard on the 31% which is all up for change and negotiation and evolution. And most people in relationships, both work and romantic, do it the other way around. They spend their whole life banging their heads against the 69 % that will never get changed. And they don’t turn their time and attention and influence to the 31 % where you can amp up the gloriousness of it all.

Skot Waldron (50:22.569)
So much effort is put into things that we can’t control, know, so much. And we spend our lives banging our heads against the wall and it’s really difficult. Julie is her name. Julie and John Gottman. they, they’re amazing. And I, even if you’re not into relationship advice, use it for advice at work.

Michael Bungay Stanier (50:23.211)
Hahaha. I know. That’s Thank you.

Yeah, unless you’re unless you’re a monk and you never interact with human beings, you should be reading relationship advice because your life is we are we are relationship creatures. We do not exist alone. We our whole world is the relationships that we weave. So get better at that.

Skot Waldron (50:49.639)
Yeah, you totally should. That’s it.

That’s right, man. Thank you so much for this. I don’t know if I was more excited today because it’s Johnny Cash’s birthday or because I got to talk to you. Probably, I’ll put you at the same level.

Michael Bungay Stanier (51:12.43)
Hahaha. I’m happy to go silver medal on that one.

Skot Waldron (51:18.869)
Okay. Um, uh, but yeah, I just, really enjoyed it, man. You you’ve, I, just, I’ve wanted to talk to you about this stuff for a long time and it’s, I finally get to, so thanks for sharing your wisdom. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. hope your book, uh, becomes the second bestseller or maybe the first bestseller in this century. And then the other one kind of, yeah, plays second pill. So, um, Michael, good luck, man. Good luck.

Michael Bungay Stanier (51:22.903)
That’s perfect. Thanks, Todd.

That sounds great. I’ll take it. Thanks for having me, Skot.