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Episode Overview:
In the podcast episode "Unlocking Mental Health Through Psychedelics" hosted by Skot Waldron, Ronan Levy, an esteemed expert in the realm of psychedelics and co-founder of a leading organization, takes listeners on an enlightening journey exploring the transformative potential of psychedelic substances for mental health treatment. The episode offers a comprehensive overview of the history, cultural context, and scientific research surrounding psychedelics, shedding light on their promise in addressing conditions like depression, anxiety, and PTSD. With a focus on safety, ethics, and responsible integration, Ronan navigates the complex landscape of psychedelic therapy, leaving audiences with a nuanced understanding of this emerging field's potential to revolutionize mental healthcare.
Additional Resources:
Today, we've got a topic that we don't normally talk about on this show, and you're going to find out why it should have such an impact on you and your business, or just you and your personal life, and you and your health. It's all about unlocking the potential of people, and this is going to help you potentially do that. I've got Ronan Levy on the call today. He is the Chairman and CEO of Field Trip Health & Wellness.
Now, he is a pioneer in the cannabis and the psychedelics industry. Now, you may have started to hear about the psychedelics thing popping up as far as therapy's concerned and different practices in that space. Well, Ronan has been featured in New York Times, CNBC, Nature, Bloomberg, Forbes, Fast Company, The Economist, Report on Business, the Robb Report and more. The word is out, okay, and this is coming out, and so you'll ... The cannabis industry is starting to take hold, and the movement is taking hold.
Well, the same thing is starting to happen in the psychedelics industry as well, and this isn't your typical, and I say to the beginning of the show, the mushrooms, LSD from high school kind of stuff. It's a bit different than that, and you're going to hear about Ronan's perspective, and you're going to go, "Hmm, interesting," so I want you to pay attention. We got some good stuff coming. Here we come, Ronan. Drop it. Ronan, this is going to be fun, man.
Ronan Levy:
It is. It's a great topic. It's piquing a lot of people's interests these days, that's for sure.
Skot Waldron:
I'm sure it is, because the last time I heard about psychedelics was in high school when everybody was eating mushrooms, and then it was kind of like those were the guys that were driving jeeps and listen to Grateful Dead, so that's the picture I have in my brain.
Ronan Levy:
Yeah, yeah.
Skot Waldron:
I'm here for you to help me shape that and reshape it into what it currently is and should be now.
Ronan Levy:
Totally. I'm going to come out and just say right off the bat that growing up, I was not a guy who drank, I didn't do drugs. All of this was terribly verboten for me, and I thought it was scary. So I just want to frame of it as when I come here, and obviously, I'm an advocate for it now, it's coming from a person who started from zero in terms of interest in this to being fully persuaded of the impact of what we're seeing happening right now. Just to make it clear, we are in the midst of a psychedelic renaissance globally right now.
The interest in psychedelics is just taking off, and it's not on a grassroots level, I mean, across the U.S.. I'm in Canada right now. We saw what happened with cannabis, grassroots activism, all that kind of stuff, and it led to a seismic policy shift around cannabis, which is amazing, and I think a really productive and positive in a number of ways. I don't profess to go into the politics around it or the policy around cannabis, but one of the important distinctions that's happening with psychedelics is this is not grassroots. This is not coming from stoners in the street who are free of the weed.
This is coming from academic and medical institutions that are conducting clinical trials on psychedelics, and I'll define what we're talking about in terms of psychedelics. We're talking about MDMA or ecstasy, most commonly known as psilocybin or magic mushrooms, LSD, DMT, mescalin, a number of the psychedelics you've probably heard of over the years, and the clinical trials and the outcomes we're seeing around this not only are fantastic, they fundamentally challenge everything you got taught in high school. When you're in high school, you probably got, this is your brain on drugs, advertisements with the cracked egg and all that kind of stuff, but what we're seeing, for example, there's an organization, it's a nonprofit called MAPS, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, they just completed the second arm of their phase 3 clinical trial, a clinical trial that the FDA gave breakthrough designation to, which means the FDA deemed it of significant importance with high likelihood of success with a significant unmet need. They just completed their second arm of that, and what they found is that two or three MDMA-Assisted Therapy sessions, so two or three days lying in a room with MDMA, doing therapy led to an effective, near effective cure for PTSD. For 75% of participants, near effective cure.
To put that in context, if you go to your doctor right now suffering with PTSD, your doctor's going to give you antidepressants and they hope to achieve a 30% improvement in your symptoms. 30% improvement of your symptoms versus 75% of people being effectively cured by MDMA-Assisted Therapy. We've seen similar studies with psilocybin-assisted therapy for smoking cessation. They're looking into it for eating disorders. They're even starting to look into the application of psychedelic compounds for neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's.
The impact is incredible, and the amazing thing is the severe adverse events, the negative consequences associated with using these compounds are virtually non-existence. Not only are these drugs, when used appropriately in the right context, not frying your brain like a fried egg, they're actually, and the science now shows, causing your brain to actually heal itself. There's a process that gets induced following psychedelic experience called neurogenesis or synaptogenesis, where your brain actually starts to rewire itself, and they can actually measure new synapses growing in your brain following these experiences, so we're seeing a truly revolutionary thing happen that is being medically driven. This is not just people going out, getting high and listening to the Grateful Dead. Again, nothing wrong with that if that's your jam, but what this is, is a medical revolution.
In fact, right behind me, there's The New York Times. It's the front cover of The New York Times, which actually featured Field Trip, and the cover article says, "Psychedelics are poised to reshape psychiatry." That's how advanced this is getting and how much impact it's having.
Skot Waldron:
That's powerful. I mean, I'm hearing a lot about it. My wife, I mentioned to you earlier on the show, or before we started recording, is into functional medicine quite a bit and has been hearing a lot about it in the community and talking to me a little bit about it, and it's kind of like, "Huh, this is something interesting. I might want to explore," and for some things that she's doing, but I sit there and go, "Okay, so who's this for?" Right?
So you're talking about PTSD, you're talking about Alzheimer's, you're talking about smoking cessation, you're talking about all these different things, right? I mean, really, who is this for? I mean, is it for ADHD treatment? Is it ..." I mean, give me a little bit more context about who should be looking into this. If they're just hitting walls with other types of treatments and they're just struggling to find that nugget, what's the opportunity for them?
Ronan Levy:
Sure. So I become a person who actually advocates that. It's for most people. There are certain exclusion criteria that I would suggest, and there are some medical considerations that I'll touch on, but from a medical application perspective, most of the interest in the research is around depression, anxiety, PTSD. Just to put a fine point on that, about 25% of Americans will be diagnosed with some form of mental health condition, depression, anxiety or PTSD at some point in their lives.
That number's growing. That's about 75 million, 80 million Americans, most of whom are not served by traditional treatments. In fact, if you look at it, it's only about 15% of people who see some degree of improvement with antidepressants. That leaves 85% of other people who are diagnosed with depression effectively with no treatment options, and even the people who do have positive outcomes on antidepressants, the improvements are pretty marginal. They're not very significant.
It doesn't mean antidepressants aren't helping a lot of people. They are, but we're talking about the 80 million people in the U.S. are going to experience this in their lives, and as I touched on, the results are incredible. At Field Trip, we provide ketamine-assisted therapy. Ketamine is an FDA approved drug, so there's no questions about legality or scheduling or anything along these lines. What we see is on average, our clients see their depression and anxiety scores go from severe to mild, and those improvements go out six months on average.
That's significant. I don't know anything out there that comes close to offering these kind of results in terms of conventional treatments with psilocybin. Some studies have suggested that the benefits can go out five years, right? Five years of improvement after one afternoon sitting in a therapist room on psilocybin. This has all been done in the clinical trial kind of context.
To be clear, MDMA and psilocybin are still scheduled, but as these clinical trials advance, there's going to be a rescheduling process and they will become medically available as well. With cannabis, you're going to see state-by-state legalization efforts happening. We saw it happen in Oregon two years ago. Colorado this past year voted to approve the Natural Medicine's Health Act, so you're going to see different access points. Who's this for?
People suffering with depression, anxiety, for sure. Incredible outcomes, safe outcomes, better outcomes than conventional treatments. What isn't really being talked about in the modern context, because there's so much fear about repeating what happened in the '60s and leading to some sort of political or cultural backlash is the prosocial side effects of psychedelic-assisted therapies. So not only do we see that people's depression and anxiety and trauma scores go way down, we also see that their creativity improves. We also see that their empathy improves.
We also see that their regard and concern for the planet and other people also improves, right? The truth is, is every single one of us, without exception, has some stuff we're dealing with. We have some trauma, we have a parent who died, we had a parent who was just not responsive to us, we had a bully beat us up in school, we were touched inappropriately by a guy at the dance. We've all got that, and we all carry that, and most of us don't do the work to help resolve that, and it helps inform. It makes the fights you have with your partner that much more raw.
When those things that your partner says just trigger you and you're like, "I don't know why that triggers me so much," it really shouldn't, but it does, those are the nuggets of just the experience of life of all the small T traumas that we experience, and so psychedelics can help us. The people ... I've never been diagnosed with depression or anxiety. I've never taken an antidepressant, but my experiences with psychedelic have been so life-affirming, have helped me open up to experience and life in so many ways have made me a much better business person and entrepreneur because I can be more empathetic and understanding to my employees, has helped me tap into different forms of creativity. It really is super powerful in so many ways.
Again, and this isn't talking about just taking a LSD or psilocybin whenever you want and going to a concert. That's okay too, but what we're talking about is psychedelic-assisted therapies, doing it in a controlled context with therapists to help you work through your stuff. So long-winded way of saying, "This is for most people, I believe," there are certain exceptions. If you have schizophrenia, severe bipolar, certain exceptions where there's already arguably a tenuous nexus to reality as it's described, maybe psychedelics are not the greatest option, but for many people, for most people, in my opinion, you could benefit from properly provided psychedelic-assisted therapies.
Skot Waldron:
Okay, so you hit on something interesting. A lot of my audience here is in the business community, and you could argue we're all in the business community in some way, shape or form, and there were always consumers of in some shape or form, but you hit on something that this helped you be a better employer. It helped you be able to empathize with employees better. So hit on the workplace culture piece of this. What's the business case for psychedelics?
Why should I, as an employer, care about this for my people? Why should I, as a employee, care about this for the benefit of my job? Hit on that for me.
Ronan Levy:
Yeah, I think there's two answers to that. One is, let's just talk the kind of hard facts associated with it. Depression and anxiety, according, I think it was the World Health Organization, but don't quote me on that, is going to become the most significant burden of disease, period, which means the cost to the global economy, as a result of depression and anxiety, is going to be larger than any other disease out there, something in the order of, I think $8 trillion annually. Depression and anxiety cost our economy from lost productivity, from absenteeism, from drain on medical resources. When you look at the outcomes that we're generating with psychedelic-assisted therapies and people getting through their depression, getting through their anxiety, at least substantially reduced than what you get is employees who show up to work more, less absenteeism, employees who are more present when they're at work because they're not dealing with the traumas that they may have been carrying around, and you have employees not going to the doctor as much because we see that people who are diagnosed with depression on average consume 30% more general medical resources than people who are not diagnosed with depression.
So in a pure pocketbook sense of the word, you're getting way better employees by providing access or enabling access to psychedelic-assisted therapies, and I think that's incredibly valuable. Now, the cost associated with psychedelic-assisted therapies are going to be higher upfront because there's a lot of work. There is therapy involved, and that involves professionals who need to be paid for their time, but the long-term savings are going to be quite high. MAPS, that organization I mentioned before, that is doing the clinical trials on MDMA-assisted therapy, suggests that their therapy, and they did this work, I think with Boston Consulting Group on a health econometrics basis, found that one course of treatment of MDMA-assisted therapy would save about $100,000 per patient over the lifetime of the patient in terms of reduced medical spend and increased productivity, so it makes good pocketbook sense to provide this. Again, right now, ketamine-assisted therapy is available anywhere in the U.S. as long as you have a doctor prescribing MDMA and psilocybin, and other drugs are coming probably in the next few years.
So there's that. Then, there's, "How does it make you a better business person or a better leader?," and I've kind of touched on these points a little bit, but what we see when people have psychedelic experiences and work productively with psychedelic-assisted therapies is two things. One is it helps people tap into creativity. They've done studies back in the '60s and a little bit more these days, where they added psychedelics to people working on seemingly intractable problems and adding a psychedelic experience to it actually led to new creative solutions to the problems, so they do enhance creativity, but I think more importantly these days, is they enhance empathy. What that means is it helps you put yourself in another person's shoes.
We all like to be leaders, we all have our style, but I will argue that the most effective leadership is when you can understand what's going on in someone else's head and respond appropriately to that, instead of doing what we think is right, knowing what they're going through at that moment and providing what they actually need in the moment is going to lead to much better outcomes as an employer. I've spoken to a number of entrepreneurs and CEOs who have done work with psychedelic-assisted therapies, and we hear that consistently, that they just understand the needs of their employees better on an individualized basis 'cause you can sit there, listen, empathize, receive, respond, and the response or reaction from the employees is so significantly improved.
Skot Waldron:
So give me an idea here. First of all, are you saying that people should or could take psychedelics at work to enhance their creativity, and processes, and brainstorming, and all types of things?
Ronan Levy:
That's a bit of a different conversation. So there's certainly an interest in microdosing. I'm sure people have heard about microdosing across the board. Most microdosing happens with compounds that are still illegal. Now, again, I'm not going to argue, saying like that's a bad idea because, I think the law is probably ill-defined, not the actual activity, but that's a different conversation, and the studies around the efficacy of microdosing are not quite as robust.
What I'm talking about is psychedelic-assisted therapies, which means you come into a clinical setting, you work with a doctor and a therapist. It tends to be what's called a transformative dose or a hero dose, so it's a large dose. A microdose is sub-perceptual. You're not supposed to notice that you've taken the psychedelic with what we're doing. We actually want people to have an intense psychedelic experience because that's where we see the neuroplasticity, that's where we see the synaptogenesis and neurogenesis happening, and that's when we see the emotional processing happen.
What happens is the way it's described is your ego gets reduced. Your sense of self gets softened, so you can work through stuff, so you can respond to therapy better. The way it's often analogized is it's like some people will say a year, some people say 10 years, but 10 years of therapy in an afternoon, you're getting to the same points that you get through general psychotherapy, which, again, I'm an advocate. I think everyone should be talking to a therapist throughout their lives to help work through the trials and tribulations of just modern life, but imagine just enhancing the efficacy of a session with a therapist by a factor of 10, or 100 or something along those lines, and that's what I'm talking about. That's where we see the creativity enhancements.
That's where we see the emotional processing. That's where we see the empathy happening. Microdosing is interesting, but the data's not there nearly as much other than what you read about what's happening in Silicon Valley. It's anecdotal. Maybe it's great, maybe it's not.
I'm not personally a big fan of it, but no. What I'm advocating for is professionally provided and supported psychedelic-assisted therapy.
Skot Waldron:
Good. Thanks for that clarification. Let me ask you this. So when it comes to the biggest fears people have with psychedelics, the biggest thing that you battle on a constant basis, what is that thing and what is your ... I don't know, what's your argument for helping them get over that thing?
Ronan Levy:
Yeah. So there's two primary fears that come up. One is I'm scared I'm going to fry my brain, and data speaks to this. There's very little evidence of this. A lot of the modern psychedelic renaissance was actually triggered by a gentleman by the name of Professor David Nutt who was, what would be the equivalent of the drugs are in the U.S., but in the United Kingdom, but when he took that position, he did not want to take a policy-based approach to it, he wanted to take a scientific-based approach to it, so he did a deep analysis of the relative harm of various drugs, and what he found was that the most harmful drug in our society, by a long shot, in terms of harm to self and harm to others was alcohol.
Number one, bottom of the list in terms of the safest was psilocybin, and LSD, and ketamine, and MDMA. Actually, most of those were below cannabis, which many people now generally regard as safe. So that was a lot of, I think the launching point for a lot of the current interest, people saying like, "Oh, this doesn't fry your brain." Now, there is talk about the bad trip. We've all ...
Not all of us, but a lot of us have probably seen the movies, talking about the bad trip and don't do the brown acid, and I want to be clear, there is always risk of having, what's called a challenging experience, but the general consensus is that there's no such thing as a bad trip per se. There are challenging experiences and there are easy experiences. Easy experiences speak for themselves. Challenging experiences, we find in our clinic, we've got nine locations operating across the U.S. and Canada. We've helped thousands of people.
Challenging experiences can actually be the most cathartic. You can get the biggest breakthroughs on a challenging experience when properly supported by a therapist or a guide who knows what they're doing. If you just take a psychedelic and go to, I don't know, call it a very frenetic, unpleasant, high energy, stressful situation, you can have a bad experience, and a bad experience can turn into a bad trip, and that creates its own issues, but in a properly supported situation, so almost no risk of a bad trip happening because you're properly supported. So that's the biggest pushback. Am I going to fry your brain?
The answer is no. The other big pushback is I don't want to give up control. I don't like the idea of giving up control. It's hard to argue with that, but what I typically respond to is that most of the things that keep us up at night, the anxiety, the fear, the stress, that's control. That's us trying to control circumstances, and so actually, the experience of psychedelics, of letting go of control, and feeling comfortable and safe with being out of control in a positive sense, is actually one of the most redeeming things that people can experience, and so I strongly encourage people to do it.
Again, you can also work up. You don't have to go to the high dose experiences where you're most out of control. You can have lower dose experiences to get a sense of it. There are also ways to approximate a psychedelic experience. If anyone's heard of breath work through different breathing techniques, you can actually induce a semi-psychedelic state, which actually can be very cathartic.
So you can get a sense of what you're about to experience in psychedelics through breath work or meditation, and so people who are really scared about losing control, I suggest try about breath work. See how that feels. If it feels positive and constructive, then you can continue the exploration as needed.
Skot Waldron:
Good. Okay. Do you have any case studies? Do you have a success story that's kind of short and punchy that you could share with us right now? Now, I'm putting you on the spot here, and I don't want you to divulge personal information or anything like that, but anything that you could share?
Ronan Levy:
Yeah, there's been a couple. Just yesterday, actually, in Sports Illustrated, an article came out about a young NBA player named Tyrell Terry. Tyrell actually came to our Field Trip location in Santa Monica 'cause the anxiety of playing in the NBA was effectively killing him, like he was reducing his happiness, and he came to Field Trip specifically with a view to trying to get past that anxiety so he could keep playing in the NBA. What happened was he got through his anxiety and realized, "I don't want to play in the NBA," and so he actually retired at the age of 23. I consider this a massive success story. S.
Ome people would be like, "Oh, he kind of blew it. You had an NBA player who walked away from his career." I don't think so. I think this is a person who recognized his true passions, his true callings, what motivates him, and he was living a life that he didn't want to live, and now he's on a path, living a life that he really wants, and I think he's much happier for it. So that's one simple example of a guy who got through his anxiety, realized on the other side of it what he was trying to solve his anxiety for wasn't actually what he wanted, and now, he's on a path that he's much happier with.
Skot Waldron:
That's cool. That's cool. Then, when people do ... I mean, how many times ... Is it a six-month treatment, and then they're "Cured," or do they come back for maintenance treatments, and how does that usually work with psychedelics?
Ronan Levy:
It depends on the psychedelic. So with ketamine-assisted therapy that we provide at Field Trip, people come in for four to six sessions with therapy interspersed over the course of, call it one to two months, and then we often don't see them again, or they'll come back six or nine months later for a single session kind of just to maintain the benefits that they experienced. With MDMA in the trials, there were just three sessions, and that led to total remission. Now, we haven't followed those people for years and years afterwards, so do symptoms of PTSD come back? Possibly, but where they are right now, it seems like they're pretty effectively cured, so it really is compound by compound specific.
The truth is, though, we had that question from investors at various points in our career of being like, "If this is so effective, are you going to put yourself out of business, offering these therapies?," and our answer is, one, if we do put ourselves out of business 'cause we solve depression and anxiety, that's an outcome that we're prepared to live with, but secondly, it's just not the nature of life. Just because you go through MDMA-assisted therapy and you deal with your PTSD from being a military veteran in Iraq doesn't mean you're not going to get into a car accident or a parent isn't going to die, or something else isn't going to happen. Life continues. Trauma happens. It's a part of life.
Learning how to respond to it is really the important thing, and so even when people are cured, they often come back because new changes arise, and that that's perfectly okay. I think that that's just a real, honest assessment of what life is about.
Skot Waldron:
Yeah, there was times when my wife would come home as a dental hygienist, and she's now going into nursing school, but as dental hygienist, most of her life, she'd come home, she'd be like, "Ugh, why don't people floss their teeth?" Right? My wife lives with floss in her mouth all the time, so she's like, "Why don't I just ... If people would just floss their teeth, they wouldn't have so many issues," and I said, "Well, you should be grateful they don't floss their teeth 'cause you have a job," and she's like, "That's not the point." It's like, "I don't want people ..."
It's like, "I would love it if I didn't have this job of having to cure people of all these things and clean their teeth," so it's the same. Everybody in the medical profession, I'm sure says the same thing, but the fact is, we're always going to need it. We're always going to need something like this to help us through that trauma, like you said, or whatever it is in life. So if somebody wants to get started in psychedelics, you talked about breath work for those that maybe a little bit hesitant at first, but how does someone get started in this? Is it legal everywhere, or do I have to go to certain states in here when I'm in the states to get it? How does that work?
Ronan Levy:
Yeah. So for people who want to get started, if you're just looking for information or meditation or breath work techniques, we actually have an app. It's called Field Trip on iOS and Android. If you're looking for very basic starting point, it's a great place for that because we created it for that exact reason. In terms of legality, all across the U.S., ketamine-assisted therapy is legal, provided that the ketamine is being prescribed by a doctor, like I said.
It's an FDA approved drug. Most doctors can prescribe it, and if they do, then it's perfectly legal to do this kind of stuff. With psilocybin and MDMA, and the classic psychedelics that are still scheduled, there's a robust underground movement happening right now, and I can't offer much specific guidance in terms of how to find it, but if you start asking questions in most kind of metropolitan centers, you probably find people who can provide input. There are a lot of great resources, you can follow Field Trip Health on Instagram and Twitter and all that kind of stuff. We provide a bunch of information about ketamine-assisted therapy, but the psychedelic movement more broadly.
If you're looking for books, Michael Pollan published a book about five or six years ago called How to Change Your Mind. It's a wonderful deep dive into the whole psychedelic renaissance with a pretty good conversation about the science. I've got a book coming out in a couple of months through Hay House called The Ketamine Breakthrough, which is a deep dive into ketamine and ketamine-assisted therapies. So there are a lot of resources out there. Starting with the Field Trip, as even just following us, you'll start to see a lot of these mentions come up, so there's books and information to follow, and then either speak to your doctor or if you have a therapist, speak to either one of them to see if they know anything about psychedelic-assisted therapy.
Most doctors probably won't. Most therapists will probably be some degree aware of it. Again, in most cities across the U.S. now, you'll find ketamine centers popping up. So with just a little bit of research, I think you'll find a plethora of information out there.
Skot Waldron:
This is good. I've never had anything like this on the show. This has opened my mind and educated me, which if this doesn't do anything for everybody else, thank you, Ronan, for helping me. I know my wife is going to be all over this. She will definitely love that I spoke to you, so I'll share with her and everybody else that I know and kind of interested in this topic.
So people want to get in touch with you, what do they do? I mean, Field Trip obviously is a good place to go, but how else?
Ronan Levy:
Yeah. You can follow me on socials, @RonanDLevy. D as in David. That's a good place. If you want to email me, feel free to email me, ronan@fieldtriphealth.com.
Happy to answer any questions. Those are the best places to start, I'd say.
Skot Waldron:
All right. Ronan, it's been awesome, man. Good job. Thank you.
Ronan Levy:
Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. I take it as a mission to try and help, at least inform and educate people so they can start asking the right questions, and every opportunity is welcome, so thank you.
Skot Waldron:
There were some interesting stats in there, right? So 75% versus 30% of PTSD efforts, of have an impact on PTSD. Traditional methods, 30%, psychedelics, 75% success rate, and that, that's huge. The effect of PTSD on people's lives is truly, truly present, and we need to do all we can to help with that. Depression, anxiety, 25% of people will be diagnosed with depression, anxiety, or PTSD in our lifetime.
That's huge. My son, he's one of those, was diagnosed with anxiety last year, and it's something that we talk about and openly, and address it. He's going to therapy and understanding how to breathe and how to tap into his own control of what he's doing, and we all need that. So me flying, I don't like turbulence, so I've tapped into breathing exercises and things to help me get into a state where I can control that. So along the same lines of what Ronan was talking about on this call is, I think some of the stuff that maybe we're already practicing in our lives, lost productivity, absenteeism, drainage on the healthcare system. We can have our people more present.
In the business world, we can empathize more with our people if we are more in tune with ourselves and maybe practicing some of these psychedelic treatments. So I'm grateful for Ronan for coming on the show. It was really fun talking to us, awesome learning about ... This is something that's pretty new to me, so it was really, really good to learn more about that. If you want to learn more about me, go to Skotsaldron.com.
You can find out all the shows, and check out the show notes there. You'll find links to some of the things that Ronan was talking about here on the show, and connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm there all the time and offer a lot of free resources and goods there. So thanks, everybody. I'll see you next time on another episode of Unlocked.
