Skot Waldron:
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In my next interview with Hisham Mitwally, we talk about several things. He is a young guy, and you would look at him and say, "So what does he have? What value, what does he have to bring me that I don't already know in my 20, 30 plus years experience in dealing with corporate world, in dealing with running organizations?" He has a lot to bring to the table. This guy is sharp. And he talks about this principle, right at the beginning here, you're going to hear about this principle of meta leadership. This is something that I haven't studied a lot, that I didn't know a ton about. He really believes in this principle meta leadership, and there's three different aspects of that, that he walks through with us.
It's really good. So just listen to that and you will get a lot out of this whole interview process. We go on to talk about several things later on. He runs a fertility clinic with his family. It's a family-owned business, and they have grown this thing and they're doing a lot of good for individuals that are having a hard time having their own children. And this is... it's an amazing, impactful interview. I'm really excited to share it with you. So get ready and let's do this thing.
All right, I've got a special guest, Hisham Mitwally here, who is the chief operating officer at Mitwally Fertility. And Hisham, you look a little bit young to be a COO of a fertility clinic, man. But, do you have your own kids?
Hisham Mitwally:
No, not yet.
SKOT WALDRON:
Not yet. Working on that?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
My parents are bugging me. They want me to get on it.
SKOT WALDRON:
The fertility clinic thing might help you out, I guess, right?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. But they want to get me in.
SKOT WALDRON:
I'm sure. Okay. Well, hey, we've had a few minutes, a good discussion prior to this, but I told you to hold off. You started to spout out some gold, and I was just like, "Whoa, hold up." Some things we were talking about earlier were about... When we we're talking about people, when we're talking about culture, when we're talking about growing businesses... You're family-owned business, correct?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Yes, we are. Family owned and operated.
SKOT WALDRON:
Family owned and operated. Okay, awesome. So you're growing this thing. It started at an infancy and you had a dream and you all wanted to build something. But you can't do it without the people. And whether that's your family, that's your friends, that's people you hire, it all revolves around effective communication. You talk a lot about listening and you talk a lot about using other people to help build the structure and the dream of what you want to do. So expand on that for us. Talk to us a little bit about your philosophy of operations and building.
HISHAM MITWALLY:
So in terms of operating and building, I'm going to touch on what we were discussing earlier. I think it all starts with unlocking the potential in yourself. And through doing that, you can help others unlock their potential. And together, you can build your business and really grow it to the potential that you want it to reach.
So there's a concept of meta leadership that I wanted to touch on. So meta leadership, it's going to be compromised of three main points. The first is yourself. You have to really know yourself, know your flaws and study yourself. See, "Where are my shortcomings?" And in order to do that, you have to have feedback from your surrounding, from your environment. You need to listen to the people who work for you, the people you work with. That's the only way to identify your skills, and to know what your strengths are and where your weaknesses are.
I'm not saying just focus on your weaknesses and fix that. I mean, yes, you have to fix your weaknesses, but also focus on your strengths. You know, where you are strong and your strengths are where you can help others to unlock their potential. So that's the first part of meta leadership.
The second part, I would say, is knowing the environment that you're working in. That means culture, the people around you, just knowing what kind of situations you're going to be getting yourself into, and what to expect. You know, a lot of people will have things [inaudible 00:05:35] in their business and they'll say, "Oh, it was out of my control," or, "It was this," or, "It was that." But a lot of the times I find they didn't listen to one of their employees, or a number of their employees. They don't listen to concerns. They don't listen. So listening is, again, the key point.
The final one is just applying it. A lot of people do a lot of planning. They to get that 100%, that perfection and they plan plan, plan, plan, plan, but they never do. They don't apply, or they're late to actually do. So a lot of us, we get caught up on just trying to do things at the perfect time or do it in the perfect way. When in reality, unlocking that potential is about failing so many times until you figure out, "Oh, this is what works." So it's a never-ending cycle of self-analysis and just analyzing your business as a whole. And I think that collaboration with others, that's really where it's at. We can learn from the differences that we all have.
SKOT WALDRON:
Okay. So number one, self-awareness, right? Understanding your strengths, understanding your weaknesses even, right? That was something that I learned in my journey of leadership. And it took me seven, eight years to realize that I really kind of sucked at a few things, that I should have brought other people in to help me with.
Number two, understanding your environment, understanding the world around you, understanding the culture, understanding how people react. And then number three is application. How do you apply all the things that you've learned. And you can't just talk about it, we've got to do.
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Right.
SKOT WALDRON:
So those, really, really good takeaway. So you told me earlier that you're spending a lot of time just putting out fires now-
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Yeah.
SKOT WALDRON:
... as an operations guy, and understanding how you can solve problems. So how do you look at solving problems? What's your philosophy, what's your approach to problem solving?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
So for me, I think that everybody has expectations. We all have expectations of how we want things to go, or our employees or whatever. And so it's going to go back to that. I like to analyze. Just take a deep breath and get everybody calm and then analyze, you know, "Where exactly did it go wrong?" Blaming doesn't work. I don't like to blame employees, but it's more of taking like a calm approach, and doing kind of like a root-cause analysis, and then sharing that information and sharing your own failures. I think that's a very important one, especially as a younger person in management, a lot of people are very quick to blame you. They'll say, "Oh, well, they're immature, or they're young, or they don't know what they're doing." And you have to almost swallow it and just move past it, and give people a little more credit than they even deserve a lot of the time.
And I think that's kind of what it's about, because over time, those acts of kindness do not go unnoticed. People will start to see that you were the mature person in a situation, especially when you don't blame them. Even if it is their fault, but you know, that fire occurred. So I think for me, that's the biggest thing, is like creating that environment where people feel valued, people feel respected. Because when people feel valued and respected, they're more likely to open up to you and communicate with you.
SKOT WALDRON:
Right on man. There's a study that was done by Google, called Aristotle. Are you familiar with that?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
No.
SKOT WALDRON:
It's a really interesting study about culture and about what creates productive teams, the secret to productive teams. And they did not find a productive team that did also not include psychological safety as one of their true criteria for having an effective, productive team. And that's what you're talking about, right? Creating a place where people can feel like they can speak up, feel they can challenge your idea without being bulldozed, or challenge your idea without being threatened, creating real collaboration, which then spurs on growth.
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Exactly. I like to call it positive pressure. That's my term for it.
SKOT WALDRON:
Oh, that's [crosstalk 00:10:06] I like that.
HISHAM MITWALLY:
You're almost pressured to want to do better. And once you have that environment where you value the collaborations and the communication, that's where you get that positive pressure. Because then people, not only are they more likely to bring it up when they make a mistake, they feel safe enough to say, "Hey, I don't know how to do this." And you can have those fires that occur in your business completely avoided, because they're not scared to go to their superior, or whoever they report to and be like, "Hey, I... " You know, even if they think it's something that should be expected of them.
SKOT WALDRON:
Okay.
HISHAM MITWALLY:
I think that's really the biggest approach, is that kindness.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yes, we didn't get anywhere just by being jerks all the time, right?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Yeah.
SKOT WALDRON:
I mean, even Steve Jobs wasn't a jerk all the time. Maybe some of the time, but not all the time.
There's certain things we value in relationships, and there's that credibility, competency side, there's the character, chemistry side. So you've got to have both, right, to ultimately build trust. You've got to have the people, but you also have to have the skills and the ability to do the job well. So where do you feel people mess up in relationships the most, when they're building relationships with their employees, with their teams, with their leaders, with their organization, where do you see the most trouble?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
I would have to say that when it comes to management and having certain expectations, they lose the human side of things. They forget to analyze the psychological portion when they're hiring people, for example, or when they're trying to build that team. A lot times, they get very focused on the credentials, on the experience. And that's where I see a lot of businesses failing. Because they fail to identify how to create a team. You need to keep in mind when you're going through the hiring process, who's going to work well with who. Because a lot of people have conflicting styles, and everybody is human.
When it's your business, nobody's going to care for it as much as you do. So you're more likely to let things go, but others can harbor negative feelings, or just bad relationships can build up over time. So I think that, in terms of building a team, that's the biggest thing you need to watch out for, is to make sure that that work environment is safe, not just from the employee to employer relationship, but also the employee to employee, your peers. This is where you see... I mean, some people, they spend hours there. They see these people more than they see their own families. So for me, again, it all comes down to that, almost creating a work family.
SKOT WALDRON:
Definitely. We spend all that time with them. Imagine just like hating work all the time. There's people out there that just loathe going to work. And it's not because of the work, necessarily, it's because of the relationships. It's because of the toxicity there, or the undervaluing of themselves, or the struggles they have, or whatever it is. And going home every day, feeling drained, feeling beat down, feeling discouraged, right? We call it the pit of despair. Feeling like you're in the pit of despair, right? And you're in this hole and there's other people down there with you too, because you're not the only one, right? And you just sit there and you gripe together. You're like, "Man, this sucks. Oh no, let's just do the bare minimum to get the job done." There's no fulfillment in that.
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Yeah, exactly. And I mean, motivation is one of those things that you're not going to wake up every day. Nobody is motivated a hundred percent of the time. So when you have that positive environment and you have that good routine, something that you're used to. So those days where you're not motivated, you're still happy to be there. And it kind of keeps you away from that pit of despair that we're talking about.
SKOT WALDRON:
Well, that's what I talk to a lot about too. And you can talk about this too, from the younger generation side, is as the younger generations are coming up and one of the main differences between this and the older generations, even the baby boomers, was that the baby boomers were okay working for the paycheck. They were okay just having a solid, consistent, steady job, right? Coming out of World War II and just having something that carried their family, that mentality. Right?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Right.
SKOT WALDRON:
But now we're in a different mindset, where the generations coming up now want to be in a company that aligns with their values, aligns with their principles, their purpose, and their bigger fulfillment in life. "Sure, I want a paycheck. Sure, I want that success, but I'm not going to compromise on my values and what my greater purpose is as an individual, and I want to make sure that aligns." Do you see that?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Right. I think so. I think that a big part of it, like you said, there's some people who are okay with the paycheck, and they're okay to just show up to work, do what needs to be done. They don't complain. They just kind of go through the motions, and they just want the paycheck. Others want to be more involved. They want to feel like they have decision-making power, that they're truly not just a worker for the company, but they are a part of the company. And those are the people that we are more likely to look at it for managerial positions. They're the ones who are going to move up, because there's nothing wrong with working for just a paycheck, a lot of people have a lot more interest and passion and hobbies outside of work, for example. But some of us, work is your hobby, your work is your life, and you enjoy it. You have a good time there. And so I think identifying the people that feel that way, and having them do some of the management as well, I think that's a big portion of it too.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah, right on. So you talk about involving people in the decision-making or in the sculpting of the culture and sculpting of the business. How do you do that?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
So the way we like to do it, we actually will just hold, it's sort of a formal meeting, but not really. We'll just have everybody come to the break room, and that's going to make decisions of course. And we'll just run it by them, just have a verbal conversation. And I'll usually write things down, and make sure everybody's on the same page about every detail, see where we can compromise without upsetting certain people. And just really make everybody feel like they truly are part of the decision-making process. I don't like to make big decisions over email, or over the phone. For me, I'm an in-person kind of guy. I know it's a little bit tough with COVID, so... But we've been making it work.
SKOT WALDRON:
That's great. So really it's like, it doesn't have to be like a half-day strategy seminar, where we're going to get together and do... it's like, "Hey, let's have a 15, 30 minute meeting in the break room, everybody hanging out. Let's talk about this thing. Janus, what do you think?" Right? And that's what you talked about earlier, too, about making sure people feel safe, making sure people feel like they can speak up in those meetings, and contribute and feel like what they say is going to be valued.
Now we're not saying that we have to include everybody's ideas, but we are saying that, "Your ideas are valid. Your ideas are good. Your contribution, we may not take that this time, but you never know when we will." Right? But-
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Well, one thing that I find, is that a lot of people don't like to answer the question, why. You know, "Why is my idea not being incorporated?" Or, "Why are we not doing it [inaudible 00:18:18] way?" A lot of times I see that employers or upper management, they don't have time for these questions, but everybody can make time. So I think that's another very big one, is answering the why, even if they don't ask you, you know, "I'd like to just volunteer a very, just brief answer as to, you know, this is why that won't work." Because if people have that understanding as to why it isn't being applied, they're less likely to hold resentment over it, if they actually understand, they're more accepting.
SKOT WALDRON:
That's interesting, because I think a lot of people are going to be super defensive about their idea. Everybody thinks their idea is the best idea, right?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Right.
SKOT WALDRON:
Or else we wouldn't be passionate about certain things. And so we put our ideas out there and we want to defend it. Why it will work, why we should do it, why we should do this, why we should do... But you keep taking the why. "Possibly, why is my idea not the best idea? Why is my idea not being put out there right now?" And this involves discussion, right? And maybe I don't truly understand, but at least I'm starting that dialogue in my head, to be prepared and understand that, "Maybe it's not the right idea right now." And that's when I can come to you as leadership and say, "Hey, so why is this not happening?" And you can say, "Well, it didn't fit this criteria or it didn't fit that criteria," or whatever.
SKOT WALDRON:
So I like that aspect, because then it opens up dialogue. Right?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Right.
SKOT WALDRON:
And it's about, like you said... I don't know if we got this on the recording or not. We have two ears and one mouth. Right?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Right.
SKOT WALDRON:
We're meant to listen more than we are... or it's just because they were placed in bad spots on our body, right?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Yeah.
SKOT WALDRON:
But we're meant to listen a little bit more than we are to speak
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Yeah. And to expand on what you were saying about opening a dialogue. And again, that's really what it comes down to, is it doesn't just open the dialogue between you and that one employee, because I like for it to be public. When you answer the why, or you voluntarily answer the why, you do it in front of everyone. There's no hiding, it's an open platform for discussion.
And so that dialogue, it'll then open dialogue between other employees. And sometimes you'll notice something that you didn't notice before as the head decision maker. And you'll realize, "Maybe my opinion or what I thought about that approach, that I originally was shooting down, is actually completely incorrect, and we should be doing it that way." Because a lot of times, I mean, you're sitting in your office and you're handling a bunch of things on a macro scale, you've missed out a lot of the micro stuff. And that's where your listening to your employees come in. Because yes, you're not going to have the hours and hours of exposure that they do to the day-to-day stuff, but that dialogue is where they'll summarize it and give it to you as best as they can.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah. Love it, man. So you've talked a lot about inclusion, about listening, about collaboration, about the value in what other people are saying, make sure they feel valued, make sure they feel heard. Right?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Yes.
SKOT WALDRON:
And that is part of the process of solving problems. We can't solve problems if we don't listen to what the problem actually is in the first place. Is there anything you want to leave with us, last tidbit of knowledge?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Last tidbit of knowledge. I think that for the younger entrepreneurs, the younger business owners, I think my one word of advice, is when you're being disrespected, when people have an assumption about you, just kill them with kindness. That's what works every time. That's it.
SKOT WALDRON:
Amen, man. I love it. We could learn that in our society right now, as much as anything, right? Martin Luther King was about that too, right? When someone comes at you down here, you go way up here, right, and just kill them with kindness, right? Just-
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Yeah. I mean, it's all about knowing who you are, what you bring to the table and then being emotionally fluid and intelligent enough to identify, you know, "Why is this person projecting these negative things without even knowing who I am?" And identifying, realizing, like they must be in a bad place emotionally or mentally, and giving them the benefit of the doubt. Because by doing that, you at least give them a chance to change their mind about you, and help them to just be in a more positive space in their head. That's what it's about, Kill them with kindness.
SKOT WALDRON:
Let's talk about the IVF stuff a little bit. Some people may be really familiar with it, some people not so much. Family business, it's what you do day in and day out. Tell me a little bit about that. What makes you so special in that world? What makes the culture so special? What makes the business successful?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
So we have a little bit of a different business model. We like to welcome our patients into the family. We don't like for them to feel like they're coming to a doctor's office. We like for them to feel like they know us, we know them. We like to talk about the personal life. And we really try to have our treatment as like a personal, kind of a tailor-made experience.
So one thing that we do, all the procedures are done actually by my parents. They're both physicians. And my father, dr. Mitwally, he's actually one of the leaders in fertility treatments in the world. So he was just nominated for his research on Letrozole. He's in, actually, the top 10 most historical contributions to the field, by the American Society of Reproductive Medicine, last year. So he's done a lot of good things. But we tried very hard to make sure that everybody is satisfied, and that people are just happy with the services that they receive.
And we try to make it affordable as well. And that's the big thing for us, is we know IVF and fertility services are usually not covered by insurance, it's a cash-based thing. So you have people that are going and taking out bank loans, and it's a tough thing to not be able to start your own family naturally. And we try to be very sensitive to that. So we're actually running a very nice thing with the IVF. I know most centers are charging between 15 to 20,000 a cycle, but right now we're actually still confident in our success rates, and with the way we use Letrozole, we're offering a $12,000 IVF if you pay 8,000 upfront, and you pay 4,000 after a successful pregnancy. But let's say, God forbid, you don't end up pregnant, we actually write off the other 4,000 and you don't have to pay it.
So a lot of people, they have to go through multiple cycles and, you hear stories of people spending 50, 60, $70,000 in cash. And we just think that's not right. You know, we think that by making it affordable, more people will have access to it. And we'll kind of make the industry a little softer, you know, just help people more.
SKOT WALDRON:
That's awesome. That is fantastic. Because I mean, it took us seven years to get pregnant. We didn't know if we were going to be able to get pregnant. And we went through a little bit of that. Now we ended up having children, but it was definitely something that was a reality check for us, right? You don't think about that when you're younger, right? And then it happens. That's amazing that you guys are doing that type of work and that you're offering that kind of service for your patients. And you call your patient family, I guess. And they make a part of your culture too, right?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Yeah, of course they do. And you know, it goes right back to that listening. I find that I've worked at other doctor's offices before I was working with the family business. And I find that a lot of times patients will actually not tell you a lot of things, because they don't feel comfortable. The doctor's office is not a nice place to be, in general. So we try to take that aspect out of it and make it more human, make it more family-oriented. So when you come in, we'll always remember who you are, and we want you to feel safe.
SKOT WALDRON:
That's great. So how can people find out more about this information, where your clinics are, or how to get in touch with you?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
So we actually have a website up now it's just mitwallyfertilityclinic.com. All the info is there. There's a little contact page, and you can shoot us your information and we'll get back to you by email. We actually also offer texting. So we have an office number that you can text, and we'll give you direct access to the physician, and whatever else you need throughout the entire time that you were with us. So we try to make it, like I said, just like family. You can text your doctor.
SKOT WALDRON:
Nice, nice. Can I text you at like 2:00 AM, ask you how to reset my internet or something, are we that close family?
HISHAM MITWALLY:
I mean, I'll try to help you out if I can. But really, I mean, if it's midnight and we get a text from a patient and we see it, we will answer. It's 24-7 for us. We're here for our family.
SKOT WALDRON:
That's awesome. Well done, man. Okay, well, it was good talking to you. I appreciate the offer. I appreciate the exposure to your knowledge, and you got a lot going on. So I appreciate your time.
HISHAM MITWALLY:
Thank you, Skot.
SKOT WALDRON:
As you can see, not only is his brain in the right place, but his heart. What they are trying to do as a family and as a business, is really help people achieve a dream. And what he does with his internal staff, the way that they collaborate, the way that they share ideas, the way that they open up dialogue and discussion, is the future of how we need to be doing things. It should have been the past. And sometimes it was, but things are changing, right? A lot of things are changing. The way we listen, the way we collaborate, the way we implement, what we hear as leaders is going to have a huge impact on our culture.
Thank you for joining me for this interview with Hisham Mitwally. You can find all of my other interviews at skotwaldron.com, in my blog section. You can find me on Medium as well, if you like to go there, and you can find me on YouTube, that's where all these videos are also hosted. So go there, hit subscribe, share with your friends and family. I would love to get some more perspectives out there in the world. Thanks a lot. We'll see you next time.
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