Unlocking Performance Psychology With Dr. Hillary Cauthen

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Skot Waldron (00:00.000)
Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Unlocked, where we talk about unlocking the potential of you, the people you work with, and the people you do life with. At the time of this recording, I’m offering all of you, yes, my lovely listeners, a free 15 minute communication coaching call. You come with some kind of communication problem, and I give you a solution. My calendar link is in the show notes so check that out.

Y’all know I’m here to serve you, right? Because that’s what I do. But I also serve myself a little bit with these interviews because I’d like to have people on that can teach me something. So that I stay engaged. The more engaged I am, the more fun these interviews probably are to listen to is just what I’m assuming.

So this was a good one. This was a fun one. This was something that I think we all need to be talking about. And having Hillary on the show, Dr. C, Dr. Cauthen, Dr. Hillary Cauthen, whatever you want to call her was really fascinating. It was really fun having her. She got a great vibe to her. And talking about this idea of mental health in sports and athletes, but of course we tie it into high performing cultures, corporate cultures, and how do we build high performing teams by taking care of our people better? And she relates some of the stories and ideas of the sports world where she comes from and where she works now mostly with the corporate world. And why that is so important for us to make sure we’re paying attention to.

Dr. Hillary Cauthen is a clinical sport psychologist and Certified Mental Performance Consultant based in Austin, Texas. She is the founder of Texas Optimal Performance & Psychological Services, where she integrates clinical and sport psychology to enhance mental wellness and performance. Dr. Cauthen has previously served as the performance psychologist for the San Antonio Spurs and the Director of Organizational Wellness & Performance for Austin FC. She is also the author of Hello Trauma: Our Invisible Teammate and hosts the podcast Highs & Lows of X’s & O’s. Dr. Cauthen is an active member of the Association for Applied Sport Psychology and the American Psychological Association, where she has held leadership roles.

So we’re gonna get on with this. I’m super stoked to have her and super stoked for you to listen to this in. See ya.

Hello, Hillary, Dr. C, Dr. Cauthen, Hillary Cauthen, whatever. I just said all of them. I just said all of them because you whatever. Super cool to have you.

Dr. Cauthen (02:35.814)
All the above.

Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here.

Skot Waldron (02:45.006)
Uh, I really wanted you on the show because I wanted to hear about how your brain works, but I also want to hear how other people’s brains work and, um, dealing with the idea of performance and also talk a bit about your book that you launched back in 2023 into 2023 and why that’s so needed right now. Okay. So first of all, why should we listen to you in the first place?

Dr. Cauthen (03:12.574)
Because I like to just have conversations like you’re having coffee with me and we’re going to learn some really cool nerdy stuff. Yeah. That’s like my style. want to be like the hip person. It’s like, we’re having coffee, but you get to learn like really nerdy things. You’re like, wow, that’s fascinating.

Skot Waldron (03:19.112)
What? That’s so fun.

Coffee and nerd stuff. Okay. I’m down with that. I can do that. Start me off with, something cool and nerdy, like right out of the gate. I want cool and nerdy. Like I’m sitting on my coffee. You’re trying to catch me. Like you’re trying to just like, reel me in. What are you going to reel me in with?

Dr. Cauthen (03:50.02)
Well, did you know that if you just sat for five to seven minutes a day, every day in stillness, you’ll rewire the neurons in your brain and actually be able to have more creativity, confidence, clarity, better decision-making just by sitting still for five to seven.

Skot Waldron (04:11.042)
Why? What? Like, what is that doing?

Dr. Cauthen (04:12.836)
Yes, it’s fascinating. So people think it’s like really hard to sit still and like neuroscience is like, can’t just do this mindfulness thing. I’m like, you only need five to seven minutes a day because 35 to 45 minutes actually changes the neural structure in our brainwaves. So it deactivates the amygdala. So we’re not so crazy. I always call our Amy, right? Our amygdala is our fight and flight response. I’m like, you don’t want Amy overreacted. So if you learn how to be calm in non-stressful places, when you get activated, you have less reactivity and you’re able to have the neural pathways that go into the frontal lobe, which is our decision making. So we are calmer, we have creativity, we’re better processing, and we’re not just so impulsive and making mistakes.

Skot Waldron (04:53.678)
I love that. I love that. Hence the reason why, you know, mindfulness meditation, whatever you want to call it, is so, so important. And it doesn’t take, you know, you don’t have to go on a seven day silent retreat. I had a guy on my show who did like a seven day silent retreat and I said, Holy moly. How did do? What? Like he said it was really hard, but, um, you don’t have do that. Oh, I don’t know. Yeah. I mean,

Dr. Cauthen (05:17.36)
Could you imagine socializing back after that too, when you’ve gone seven days? How do you re-engage in the socialization?

Skot Waldron (05:24.076)
Yeah. I was like, wait a second. So you couldn’t like, it’s like, no, talking, no asking, no, like no breaks. Like it was just that. And I was like, that is, that’s some, that’s some, that is some neuron rewiring going on there. Yeah, for sure. That’s, that’s really cool. So when you are doing this, like you give us your background, and how you got into the sports space.

Dr. Cauthen (05:34.276)
Yeah, that’s deep introspection. Yes, absolutely deep introspection for sure.

Yeah, so by trade, I’m a clinical sports psychologist and entrepreneur or business owner. So I really work on this continuum of care model. I’m a licensed psychologist, so I specialize a lot in mental health and mental illness within high performers, specifically athletes. And then I also have a certified mental performance consultant, kinesiology background, which is all of the competitive kinesiology, extra science, like mental wellness, mental performance aspect. So, I started this like a lot of people in the field who want to be sports psychologists. I was an elite, youth athlete, collegiate athlete, loved sport, but I also experienced some pretty toxic cultures in sport. You know, I had this like dichotomy and cognitive dissonance of sport is good and sport is bad. And like, how do we make sense of all this? And then the non-competitive athletes, I just found it fascinating how sport exercises pushed on our society of this makes you feel happier. It makes you feel healthier, you know, exercise X amount of minutes a day. We prescribe exercise.

And so I was really just fascinated by the science behind it, how to help everyone fall in love with exercise and movement. And then also take these athletes that are put on a pedestal and superheroes and we, their entertainment and actually find the humanity aspect of sport and really be a person who could connect with them at that level and see them more than what they do.

Skot Waldron (07:12.056)
And then you wrote your book. So why did you write your book? Why, why did you revolve it around this idea of, mean, the book, “Hello Trauma: Our Invisible Teammate”. Why, why did you involve it around the trauma idea?

Dr. Cauthen (07:13.584)
Mm-hmm.

So in 2018, I had done a TEDx on the toxic culture of sport on athletes’ mental health. And it was the first time that I was really coming out and owning what I believed in in the field and owning this idea that sport can be really toxic on our athletes’ mental health. And at the time, mental health in sport was so stigmatized and mental illness was stigmatized. And we didn’t want to talk about feelings. I mean, there’s only prescribed feelings that we accept in sport, and especially in male and females. And I was like, I’m going to change the game. I’m going say, hey, like,

Let’s make sport better. Here’s what we allow to exist. That’s not okay. How can we change that? How can we evolve the whole structure, which is a daunting task? and then four years later, I had different experiences working within different professional and collegiate organizations and learning about these cultures and trying to instill organizational wellness. And I kind of finally was like, you know what, like I need to speak louder. And so let me write this book and it’s kind of funny I came about.

You know, when you have these group meetings, executive meetings, and they’re like, Hey, what’s your goal for the year? And most of the time it’s like run a marathon or do some health goal. And I was like, I’m going to write a book. I don’t know what made me say that in 2021, but I was like, I’m going to write a book. And then a year later, I went back to that conference. said in 22 to a year later, I went back to the conference and I was like, here’s my book. You want to pre-order it? Like it comes out in December and I had done it. Um, and I didn’t think this would be the book I wrote, but

It felt so true to the things that I really believe in of trying to make change. And I was like, you know, I got to be more than words. Let me do some action and let me just keep spreading this message of, you know, connectivity and wellness and empathetic engagement to try to shift the culture.

Skot Waldron (09:07.95)
So no pressure. honestly, like we didn’t, we didn’t talk about this next question before the show, nor did you write it in some of the notes, but do you have a personal experience from this that you’re willing to share?

Dr. Cauthen (09:18.182)
I do. Yeah. Um, so multiple, right? Like I had very significant experiences when I was a youth athlete that at the time I wouldn’t have known that were kind of traumatic, but they definitely shaped my social structure. Um, you know, I think the things that stand out are, I had clipboards thrown at me when I was a basketball player, you know, like I had a coach around and was trying to punch the chair and he almost punched me in the face. And we’re like, this is like, okay. And like the yelling and the demeaning that is allowed in sport with that bracket of morality. In college, my coach definitely would ignore, isolate, not acknowledge, which was very, very impactful in my emotional wellness. And then as a professional, I went through something where I can’t speak to all details, but an organization failed me pretty significantly.

I had to come out and stand out in public for what I believe was right and kind of steer the ship and say, hey, this is not okay. We can’t allow this to exist. And, you know, I’m going to make a change by publicly saying what happened. And, you know, that was pretty recent. that was, when systems fail you and you lose your voice and you’re being silenced, I also was like, well, let me find a way to not have that happen and not be silenced.

Skot Waldron (10:37.55)
Was it specifically you or were there other people being silent?

Dr. Cauthen (10:41.624)
you know, so there was an event that occurred that happened to me, significant event that happened to me. And in the reporting process and the things that occurred after that, they were not handled the way that they should have, right? I was not taken care of. And so other people for sure had been impacted by other things that had come out. so I know I wasn’t the sole person, but in my instance, I was the sole person to speak up and ask for help.

Skot Waldron (11:07.702)
And did others follow?

Dr. Cauthen (11:10.328)
No. In other situations, things had come out, yes, but in my situation, my organization, no one stood by me.

Skot Waldron (11:19.426)
How did that feel?

Dr. Cauthen (11:21.426)
you know, when people speak in support behind closed doors, it’s nice to have the affirmation or like, you’re not alone or we believe in you. But when you don’t use your power and use your voice and speak out publicly, it’s pretty, it’s pretty detrimental. hurts, right? You’re angry. It’s not okay to like, be like, your empathy and support behind closed doors means nothing to me. Like use your voice, have power, say this isn’t okay. You know, like stand with me.

And so that’s what I speak about in the book. There’s, can stand ahead of someone, you can stand behind someone, you can stand beside and in any aspect you have to be with them and don’t allow the person to just take the lead and put the armor on, which is what I did. Right. And a lot of people who stand out against things, they’re the ones who have to put the shield and carry all the aftermath that comes with that in order to protect everyone else in the future and hopefully make some change. And that is a very vulnerable, scary thing to do.

Skot Waldron (12:19.63)
So the whole time you’re talking, I’m thinking about what I’m involved with every day of coaching leaders and teams and side of organizations and what they do and quote unquote high performers and trying to understand their world and what’s going on there. And it doesn’t sound that far off from what you’re talking about. Now, I don’t know how many of them are having clipboards thrown at them.

Or almost being punched in the face because the, you know, their leader tried to hit a chair. I hope that’s not happening, but which, which is really interesting that that in sports is kind of like seen as. Kinda like acceptable or like they get a pass or it’s kind of a norm or it’s kind of a, yeah, that coach is really fired up, you know? And then we kind of go, Ooh, you know, but we kind of just let them go as long as they’re winning. But…

Dr. Cauthen (12:53.818)
Yes.

Skot Waldron (13:15.598)
In the real world. I mean, I don’t know. In the real world, we kind of look at it too, like in the corporate space and go, well, are they producing results? They kind of get a pass, you know, in that space too. And that’s a prop.

Dr. Cauthen (13:25.744)
Yes?

Well, and the idea of communication, right? Like, so we allow things to be said in environments, in sports specifically, to our athletes that are very demeaning, degrading, shaming, that we wouldn’t allow a teacher to say. You you don’t want your parents to say that. You don’t have other persons say that to you. We would report that. But even in the corporate world, right? Like, we allow executives at certain levels to use a certain tone or set a certain standard or behave a certain way. If we feel, and we can kind of make meaning that, this is motivating, this is producing, this is just who they are to set the standard of excellence, but it doesn’t mean it’s okay.

Skot Waldron (14:09.504)
No, it doesn’t. And you’ll hear that often. It’s like, that’s just the way they are. That’s just how they communicate. they’ve gotten to where they’ve gotten being that way. So when they get there, they go, I don’t know what their problem is, you know, or, we’ll just get rid of them because, you know, the people down there, because I’ve gotten to where I’ve gotten being just fine. Like, you know, and it’s, and you know, it’s like where the consequences and I don’t know, is there a generational shift? Do you see it changing? Like in, your athletic world, do you see that dynamic changing at all? is it still pretty prevalent?

Dr. Cauthen (14:47.632)
You know, it’s interesting. So the athletes are changing, right? And we look at the cultural generations of our college students now, right? Like the way that they advocate for political rights and the movements of mental illness and mental health and standing up for things. Those things are shifting in the individuals themselves or in the organization or experiences. At an executive leadership level, they’re saying the right things, but they’re not following through.

Right? So I think we’re at a point of like, let me just put it on paper and have it look good and have this resource, but I’m not going to utilize it or I’m not going to do it all the time. And it’s like short-term changes. So when we look at this shift, it’s like, where do you start the shift of the culture? it at a younger level? You know, is it at a higher level, you know, professional to you, grassroots sport, you know, in executives, like where do you make the change happen? Like who has the power to actually say, we can’t act this way. And to your point, comes down to accountability and consequences.

Skot Waldron (15:47.552)
do you think there should be more?

Dr. Cauthen (15:50.084)
Yes. And a standard, right? Like partly standard of education and who’s allowed to be in certain positions, right? We can’t just let people that don’t have the training and background to be in these positions any longer. But we also have to have sanctions and accountability. Like if you look at behavior change, you’re only going to change the behavior if the other thing is more rewarding. So if I get rewarded by wins or a paycheck, I’m not going to change my behavior because there’s no threat to do that. You talk to me and say, hey,

Don’t talk to Scotty about that. Okay. But I still get my paycheck and we win and there’s nothing that happens. I can do that three weeks later and it’s

Skot Waldron (16:27.692)
Yeah, there’s a, there’s definitely a, what, like I was saying earlier, you know, it’s, it’s the person who got to where they got to being how they are. And so if they’re continuously rewarded with promotions and more responsibility and, whatnot, then why would they ever change?

Dr. Cauthen (16:48.378)
Right. And I think, you know, what we socialize and what we put out there, representation of this is what leaders look like. This is how leaders are supposed to be. This is how you gain attention and command a space. I don’t know if we’re teaching the right lessons on how to be that leader.

Skot Waldron (17:06.476)
I don’t know either. mean, I think there’s a, there’s an interesting thing that we need to talk about. I was, I was actually just talking to somebody on another recording, about this topic of saying, so why don’t we, why don’t we invest more in it? What’s your opinion as far as whether it’s in the athletic space or the corporate space of like, why aren’t we putting more focus on? You’ll hear a lot of people speaking and beating the drum but I don’t know how much is changing and, we’ll, we’ll talk a big talk. We’ll say, Hey, mental health. It’s very important. the health of our, employees, the health of our, our people is really important. We want, we want you to take time for yourself and your family, but yet we’re seeing increased rates of burnout. You know, we’re seeing, stress levels. just had somebody I was talking to yesterday where, know, she, she’s crying because she’s just so stressed out all the time.

And I’m like, okay, so you’re talking a talk, but why aren’t we walking it?

Dr. Cauthen (18:12.454)
I mean, for me, the basic essence is we don’t teach people emotional regulation or how to manage emotions ever. Those that learn how to do that is like probably way later in life. Imagine if you’re a kid and you actually get to learn about feelings and how to manage them, how to cope with them, and how to have mental health when you’re a five, six, seven-year-old. Now as an adult, you’re going to able to respond a lot better. But we teach our children, act a certain way, perform this way, don’t show this way. We don’t actually show them how to be vulnerable, how to express their emotions. You think about a kid who falls down and it’s like, we’re not gonna let them cry. Like dust it off, you’re fine, right? Like we teach them certain things are weak and prescribed ways to be. And so it’s already structuring their brain to say, well, I can’t show that emotion. I can’t act that way. And as an adult, when you start to have higher conscious level thinking and you’re like, no, it’s okay for me to feel certain ways. It’s okay for me to take care of myself. It’s not being selfish. Well, then you’re battling against the society framework of what’s right, what’s wrong, what’s acceptable, what will people view me as? And we get so caught up in the socialization and fear of evaluation that we can’t be less than, we can’t be weak, we can’t underperform if we do X, Y, or Z. And so it limits us from actually being healthy.

Skot Waldron (19:28.322)
When we, I mean, when you’re working with people.

Is it possible to change?

Dr. Cauthen (19:37.316)
Yes, 100%. Or I’d out of a job, right? Absolutely. I mean, I genuinely believe people can, we know that you can rewire your brain and the, I call it the head and the heart. Like I work with the head and the heart. That is what I do. So I teach people how to think differently. I teach people how to feel differently. It’s up to the person to actually do it. But do I believe that people are capable of change? 100%.

Skot Waldron (19:39.95)
Yeah, no, I’m just, just, I’m to that.

What, what helps that? Well, I mean, if we’re going into, the psychology of this idea, right? When we, when we look at people and what drives change, it’s, it’s well, is it the pain of my current state is too much the point where something has to change? Like there’s gotta be a catalyst, something that, that triggers a, the breaking point, but how do you.

Dr. Cauthen (20:21.062)
Mm-hmm.

Skot Waldron (20:28.386)
I mean, can you manufacture a breaking point? People don’t notice it. People are just completely unself aware of this thing. Like, I don’t know. What do you do to help start the process even?

Dr. Cauthen (20:34.265)
Right, right.

It’s interesting. So a lot of people, and I challenge because I educate that I don’t want to be someone you just come to when you have a problem, when you’re at that point, right? I want to be a part of your life and your teammate in and out of what you’re going through, the good and the bad, right? Because that is part of learning how to celebrate success. We’re not so great at either. So I like to teach them, like, I can be your teammate on all levels. So I have seen a shift, especially with the parents who bring their adolescent athlete in.

They come in at a much more preventative level of like, I want to catch this ahead of time. I’m going to teach my kid how to have these coping skills. They have these transitions coming up. But to your point, most people come in when there’s a real serious level of problem or distress and they’re like, I can’t take this any longer. Like I need to do something different. If you’re at a point who is more of the, not sure. It does start with the self-awareness. It starts with curiosity. I think we have a really good pop culture. I always look at the pop culture trends.

Like few years ago it was mindfulness and now we’re in this resiliency and growth mindset phase. The growth mindset is curious and being curious about yourself and the patterns of how you grew up, your attachment style. Why are you the way you are? Why do you think a certain way? Why do you behave a certain way? Why do you respond to certain things? When you have individuals who want to take that deep level of curiosity, then they can start to make change. And I’m always saying, is this helping or hurting you? Is what you’re feeling or what you’re doing helping or hurting you? And is it helping and hurting other people?

A lot of people just get stuck on the self part. I’m like, okay, but now take it to one other level. Is it helping or hurting the people in your world?

Skot Waldron (22:09.24)
How do coaches, leaders help people through this process? Like how do you help somebody through the trauma phases in your book? talk about it a bit, right? But how do you help somebody that’s been in that they’re hesitant or they don’t feel the psychological safety to speak up or like you did. I guess that’s why I asked was anybody else with you? And they’re like, you’re like, nope.

Dr. Cauthen (22:36.132)
Yeah. Well, and I wouldn’t say it was a psychologically safe environment either, but I think what sparked me to speak up is, I have four daughters as well, and I’m representing something a lot bigger than myself. And if I didn’t stand true to all the things I was telling other people to do, I couldn’t look myself in the mirror. Like I had to do things for myself, but for bigger than myself, if that makes sense. For leaders, the real answer is they don’t know how to help. So they send you off to someone else. And that’s where we need to shift the change. You can’t just say, here’s a referral or here’s what I recommend. Here’s a common example I see happening all the time and I speak about this in my book. The true aspect that leaders need to do is actually just sit and be present and ask questions. like asking and not assuming. So when someone has a death in the family, that happens a lot in work environments, unfortunately you experience a loss and so they’ll say, like maybe I need to go on bereavement. And the immediate response from a leader is take as much time as you need. That sounds great. However, that person might not wanna take as much time as they need. They actually might wanna come into work the very next day because that’s a routine for them that is safe, that allows their brain to kind of function and process, and they can go cope with their emotions differently, but they don’t wanna be alone the entire day with all their emotions. So we can’t assume what we think is good is good for that person. So first, the best thing leaders can do is just say, like, how can I support you? What do you need in this time? What can we do to make this work well for you? We’re here for you.

Well, this is what we think it looks like. What does it look like for you? Like make it a collaborative process.

Skot Waldron (24:09.752)
And that’s why I think, I would say newer leaders probably, they think they have to have all the answers and they’ll say the door is always open or they’ll say that take as much time as you need because that’s what they feel like they should say. And it’s not like those things are bad. Like that’s good. I mean, especially if you don’t get anybody who says that anyway, right. But it is well intended. And I think that they, they, they mean well with those things.

Dr. Cauthen (24:29.658)
Yeah. It’s well intended, right?

Skot Waldron (24:38.698)
I almost think of that as reactive leadership. and as you mature and you grow in this thing, I think that’s kind of what you’re talking about too, is like, if we started teaching this early on, we wouldn’t have to wait so long to have healthy leaders and coaches, to get to the point where it’s like, they’re in their prime now and they’re actually investing in their people, asking questions, being more curious and catering to the person, not to my expectation, what’s the expectation on me as a leader or as a coach, right? I have to say these things or else I’m not a good leader, you know.

Dr. Cauthen (25:10.33)
Right. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, everyone gets caught up in their own performance, right? Because they want to all do it the right way and prescribed a certain way and act a certain way. And then we lose essence of what it actually is to just be and be present. And how do we show up and do the things that we know are, it’s good enough for that day, right? And you’re always working to be better. But, you know, I think you have to check yourself a lot more and have a more reason why I’m doing things.

Skot Waldron (25:39.404)
Are your, are your kids, they play any sports?

Dr. Cauthen (25:43.184)
They do. I break my rules all the time in this aspect because I’m like, this is the age I should put them at this competitive level and don’t coach on the sidelines and what’s a car ride home conversation look like? I have failed numerous times, even though I know all the science. I’m still a human and get my own way. But yes, all my kids are in multi-sport athletes. Some are higher competitive levels way earlier on than I thought they should be, but that’s where we’re at.

Skot Waldron (26:13.774)
I was going to say, um, you know, can’t imagine what those ride homes are, but my wife, whenever my, my son gets back on the carton, you know, before she’s like, just hold it back, just, you know, speak some positive stuff, you know, positive stuff. And I’m just like, I am positive, you know, like, yeah, I’ll just say, Hey, what would be great is if you worked on this thing, isn’t that positive? You know, like, I don’t know if it is or not, but.

Dr. Cauthen (26:38.089)
Yeah. You know, it’s funny because my kids retain a ton of stuff and my oldest will say something. I’m like, that’s so great. Like, where’d you hear that? She’s like, you? I’m like, oh, cool. Like, awesome. Like one time she’s like, I was listening and you know, I know I got to work on this mentally. And I was like, where’d hear that? She’s like, you know, from a mental coach. like, who are you talking to? And she’s like, you mom, I’m talking about you.

Skot Waldron (26:51.084)
Yeah, you’re right.

I know, I know they hear us sometimes. Sometimes they hear us. what do you, here’s, here’s my question for you. you’ve experienced your own trauma in the sports arena and, and, and, and life in this space, right? So what are you most afraid of for them? I mean, is that part of your thinking? Like, what do you, what are you preparing them for knowing what they may.

Dr. Cauthen (27:03.62)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, 100 %

Skot Waldron (27:29.858)
Not everybody’s gonna have this experience, right? But what they may encounter. And I don’t know what it’s like female athlete versus a male athlete and whatnot too, so.

Dr. Cauthen (27:37.818)
Yeah. And you know, in my, in my TEDx, I said at the time I had three kids and I was pregnant actually during my TEDx of the fourth. And I had mentioned, I don’t know if I’ll put my kids in sport because of the organizational failures that exist in the toxic culture. However, I know such the benefits of sport as well. My kids want to do it, but I do fear the emotional abuse, the verbal abuse that could occur to them that causes such emotional distress and lack of self-worth and self-identity and and the pressures placed upon them, right? I see these things existing in my kids of I have to perform in order to be accepted or liked or valued or the struggles with the female athletes, right? Like I’m teaching my daughters to be confident and humble, but to own their strengths and to be proud of the things they’re good at. And that is a very kind of questionable thing when you’re a 13 year old girl and you’re confident in the things that you’re doing because there’s the social things that people want to bring you down.

And they want to talk about you and they want to have negative aspects around what you’re doing to dim your light. And I have a lot of conversations around my girls to be confident and to want to be the best and that’s okay and like show up and do that. But then you’re different. so, you know, and then there’s the sexualization that exists around there and the sexualized aspect. And I’m always one step ahead knowing how NIL is existing and how do women get the marketing deals and the branding and what does that look like? And there is aspects of the sexualized aspect of females that exist. And so those are things that I have to constantly be mindful of and protective of around my young girls and the environments they’re in.

Skot Waldron (29:10.158)
Totally. Thinking about, thinking about this high pressure situation of sports versus corporate space. Are, are you saying, or I don’t know what you’re saying, but is it the idea that we should never yell? We should like with the generations come up now and, and, you know, the participation trophy idea and the you know, we, we have to be sensitive to people’s mental health issues and things like that. How do we navigate that as, leaders and how do we in a space of what we’re trying to do? I mean, should we never yell at them? Should we never like reprimand them in front of everybody? Should we like, what are, what do we do?

Dr. Cauthen (30:00.324)
Yeah, I think this is like the myth when I talk about things, everyone’s like, feelings, mental health, we must be safe and put kid gloves on, it’s rainbows and butterflies. I’m like, no, no, you need to have a standard of excellence. It’s about wins and losses. It’s about the ROI. You have to actually meet your deadlines. And there is a consequence if you don’t do those things. When it comes to yelling, I think we can communicate without yelling, right? There’s a way you can command a space with a presence.

If you develop psychological safety and security, if you have trust in the relationship, people will listen to you. Now, have I yelled as a parent? Yeah, I have, right? My frustrations get the best of me and I’ve yelled. In a corporate space, I couldn’t imagine yelling in that area, right? Tone of voice though, right? Tone of voice could probably be problematic. The way that your body language exists could still be very displaying disappointment or frustration, right? We are humans. And so if we don’t take care of ourselves and our own emotional stuff, that thing will always come out.

But I think there’s a way around what are my standards and expectations and then how do I motivate people to then adhere to those things and how do I hold people accountable if they’re not following through with what’s needed. And that’s the part that doesn’t happen. We don’t have accountability and consequences for actions. We let things slide. We kind of make room for excuses. And the other side, because we’re so about mental health now, it almost becomes a crutch and a disservice where it’s like, I need a mental health day.

And this is where I get on my soapbox from like mental health is not mental illness. Mental health is, are you taking care of how you think and feel just like your physical health is? Are you exercising and eating good stuff to make your body feel good? So we don’t get a cold or the flu or COVID or something more terrible for our body, just like we don’t want to have a sad day turned into depression. And so I think some part of society is making mental health be like,

I can’t do it today. I’m so emotionally exhausted. need a mental health day.” And I’m like, well, that’s problematic for those that actually are really suffering with mental illness because now you’re making it not feel as big as it can be.

Skot Waldron (32:06.53)
So what do do in that space? I mean, do we just say, no, you’re not? Like, no, you’re not feeling those things. And do need to get back to work?

Dr. Cauthen (32:10.768)
Yeah.

Well, I think if you set the environment up where people can take care of themselves already naturally, and I call it consistent coping versus reactionary coping, right? Where I’m like, oh, I’m so exhausted now, I need to take a day. I’m like, if I have an environment where it’s like, we encourage you to go to the gym or take an hour lunch, get out of the office, know, do some yoga, we bring things in space, here’s some coffee, here’s some connectivity. You know, here’s where you can do one work from home day and then four days you’re in the office, right? Like, and there’s flexibility and ownership and an environment that is shaped to say,

We have everything for you to utilize and to care for yourself. If you’re not doing that, that’s not on us, right? But we are providing, we’re encouraging, and we’re doing these things, then as an organization, you can hold them accountable. You know, the first time, okay, but if it’s a pattern, that’s what you have to look at. As leaders in those, we have to look at, this a pattern of behavior that’s existing that now I need to intervene?

Skot Waldron (33:10.67)
How open, I’m jumping around all kinds of stuff because this is all that’s triggering in my brain. How open should we be about trauma?

Dr. Cauthen (33:21.28)
time because this is what I talk about in my book. Trauma is like stubbing my toe. It’s a physiological response in our brain that has said, hey, fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. What’s happening in you? Let’s protect you. And then once we regulate that, then we can make meaning of it. The reason why trauma becomes so big is the meaning behind these events and the inability to cope with them. So me stubbing my toe, I’m like, I stubbed my toe. That’s traumatic. Me when it’s a car accident, that’s traumatic. The death of a loved one, traumatic. Sexual assault, harassment, all ranges. What we’ve done as a society is we minimize our own experiences because we don’t want to pity or shame or judgment of what’s gone on with that. And we will always make someone else’s trauma bigger than our own versus just making the meaning behind it and coping with it in a healthy way.

Skot Waldron (34:11.714)
Why? Why do we do that?

Dr. Cauthen (34:14.286)
Well, because we don’t want to actually be seen as weak or that we need help or assistance.

Skot Waldron (34:20.045)
Because why?

Dr. Cauthen (34:21.286)
because we’re socialized that you have to be the best and you have to be strong and you have to like be put together. We can’t handle messy.

Skot Waldron (34:26.08)
Right. that’s right. And, know, people will blame the social media monster for that. And, you know, I’m sure that has some play in the world. but I, you know, pieces of it are, are, think that few of the generations that came before us, you know, that, kind of taught that.

You just pick yourself out of your bootstraps and you know, sink or swim mentality and all these things. It’s like, nobody likes to sink. I don’t know why we use that. Like, do you like to sink? Did you like sinking when you were first in this job? Like, I don’t think we, anybody likes that. I don’t know. It’s kind of that mentality of like, okay, so if we’re going to make sure we hold people accountable, make sure we do things, but we also need to talk about the trauma. We also need to be open about certain things and relate to certain things.

Dr. Cauthen (34:57.648)
Yes.

Skot Waldron (35:17.166)
That seems like really complicated. Now we’re getting like just so complicated.

Dr. Cauthen (35:21.798)
I mean, it seems that way because no one knows how to do it, right? Or we’re not doing it and anything new and change seems complicated. But imagine if you just had someone in your office that takes care of, you know, emotional well-being, organizational wellness, had lunch and learns and educational topics and a place to just go and be and talk.

Skot Waldron (35:42.392)
But at the end of the day, how does that help me make money?

Dr. Cauthen (35:47.098)
Because happy people are going to show up and work better and more productive and love their life. And then if they do well at work, then they’re to be happier again. And it’s a whole cycle. Like I tell my athletes, like, look, if you’re happy in life, you’re going to perform better. If you’re performing on the field, you’re going to be happier in life. If you get a sale in a job, you’re yes, I just made that sale. I’m happy. Now I’m going to talk to my coworkers. I’ll be more excited. I got pep in my step. Great. Same thing if you just had a great date the night before. Work-life balance is real.

Skot Waldron (36:13.998)
Totally agree. do. and I just, I get on my soapbox and people are just like, no, we keep person. You keep your personal life personal. You keep work work. And I’m just like, no, you don’t. It doesn’t work that way because it does not. It does not. We cannot sever ourselves. Um, and in this space of like, you know,

Dr. Cauthen (36:15.526)
But we have to celebrate the wins.

It’s not organ of Severance if you watch Severance. It doesn’t work out so well for them.

Skot Waldron (36:41.772)
we know what happens on the inside and the outside. If my marriage is in crisis and my kids are sick and something else, my mortgage, I can’t pay my mortgage, whatever, that’s gonna carry, I’m not gonna go to work and all of a sudden be super happy, cheery. It’s gonna really affect my performance.

Dr. Cauthen (36:58.746)
Right, right. And with that, and this is where I come into play, like life happens. It doesn’t mean you don’t have responsibility to keep showing up and working hard and doing your job. So it’s a matter of teaching people how can they perform in their environments when they know life is happening, right? Or how can they show up for me? If I’ve had a stressful day at work, I’m very intentional. come in my driveway, I listen to one more song, and I love it I see means about this. If you’re the one who sits in driveway for one more song, you know what that means.

But I intentionally sit for like one more song before I come in. Cause the minute I turn that door, I’m mom and I have like kids running up, mom, mom, mom. And like your parent and you get mom, mom, mom. And got four of them. I have to be regulated to handle everyone else’s emotional needs and listen to every story and three people talking at one time. So I can’t bring in the work into home. And so you have to have routines and shifts and know this is my role that I’m going into right now. And here’s how I’m going to show up for that.

Skot Waldron (37:52.866)
When we’re talking about, about shifting, you know, about this idea of moving from one thing to another, being prepared mentally for this versus that. and talking about how do we build resilient cultures? And I mean, do you have any tips? Any like, I mean, you got the one more song tip, you know, I’ve got tips that I’ll give people. like, pick, on your way home, if you, if you still commute to work, right. Pick one thing that.

Dr. Cauthen (38:11.664)
Mm-hmm.

Skot Waldron (38:21.472)
triggers you to actually get off the phone if you’re on a call or something, right? Or don’t pull into the driveway if you’re still on the call, like the cul-de-sac that’s up the street or something till you’re off the call and then take that time to actually drive in so that you’re prepared. So you’re not coming into the house on the phone, stiff arming all your kids. Like, not yet, you know, that kind of thing, you know? I don’t know, any thoughts on, not necessarily that, but how do we manage

Dr. Cauthen (38:41.168)
Mm hmm. Right. Yeah.

For sure.

Skot Waldron (38:50.939)
our lives, our mental health, our, ability to perform well.

Dr. Cauthen (38:55.558)
Yeah, I mean, the first and foremost we talked about, I talk about five minute mind all the time, like taking five minutes, like we said in the very beginning, just sitting. And then I’m all about like these pre-performance routines and post-performance routines. So how do you get yourself in the best place to go perform? Like, do you want to exercise in the morning? Cause I get your mind on, do you like to have coffee and journal or do a daily devotion and like sit in space? I’m very big on when you’re driving into work, get yourself in that emotional state, whether it’s listening to music, it’s a podcast, it’s silence, you know, as you call in before you get in and go to the door. like, what is your intention for the day? What is your plan for the day? Right? Like, so already have a goal in mind, go do your day. And then I like to tell people at work, especially close out your day before you leave work, like reflect. It’s been the last 15 minutes of like, okay, here’s all my things I gotta do for tomorrow. Here’s what I did well and have like this reflection period. My athletes do the same thing. What I do well today, what I need to improve on. What’s my plan tomorrow? Like then they’re done.

They don’t have to sit with me. That was really crappy practice and we’ve done it. We reflected. And if you can close out your day before you then go into your car and take the next step, it’s a lot better of kind of these book in chapters. and then kind of finding the space, right? Of like, how do you prepare for the evening? So you can have that energy and taking the space and kind of challenging stuff. And then sleep hygiene. That’s my biggest one. Having like this wind down sleep routine, not just look at my doom scroll or watch a TV show and go to bed. It’s like take a hot shower, like be intentional with your space to just allow your body to wind down and then get the proper amount of sleep.

Skot Waldron (40:30.414)
So doom scrolling is not a healthy way to go to sleep. that what you’re saying?

Dr. Cauthen (40:33.841)
Definitely not. Cause you’re going be on there way longer and the blue lights and all the stuff, and then you’re to be like overthinking your brain. No thanks.

Skot Waldron (40:37.544)
my gosh. And your spouse is like, my gosh, the glow on your phone is really annoying me right now.

Dr. Cauthen (40:43.226)
That is me. If my husband’s on it, I’m like, turn over.

Skot Waldron (40:47.15)
get it off my dog. They’re like, well, I got the night mode on. It’s red. You know, you’re like, know, I know. There’s, yeah, there’s, there’s some gold here. And let me ask you this. What do we do instead of those healthy things? What do you see most people doing?

Dr. Cauthen (40:50.886)
Yeah, I’m like, pillows on my face, not working.

Besides being on their phone all the time, binge eating, unhealthy behaviors, right? Just watching TV, putting things off, adding stress. The things that impact them the most is we avoid. We go into avoidance mode when we have stress because we don’t want to tackle what we have to have tackled. So we’ll fill our space with other things that are not what helps us be healthy.

Skot Waldron (41:30.104)
We have boys. So you said four things earlier, fight, flight, freeze, which I’ve heard of those. said falling. So tell me about the fun one.

Dr. Cauthen (41:35.504)
And then Fawn.

Best way to describe is like a deer, right? A little fawn who just kind of stands and gives in as needed, right? It’s very malleable. When we think about trauma, right, the fawn is like very pleasing, you know, doing as I need to do where the freeze, you just can’t do anything, right? You’re literally paralyzed. The flight, you’re going to totally run away and then the fight you’re fighting, but the fawn is very, it’s going to show up. It’s pleasant. It’s pleasing to the person. It’s trying to cause no harm.

It’s valuable to manipulate. You manipulate very easy.

Skot Waldron (42:09.43)
Yeah, subtle kind of passive aggressiveness maybe.

Dr. Cauthen (42:12.9)
Yeah, like if I can appease you, then you’re going to cause me less harm.

Skot Waldron (42:17.516)
Yeah. Okay. That makes total sense. And so when people are stressed, when they get into these bad, whether it’s sensory overload, sensory escapism, maybe they’re over shopping or they, they, they need to go, or eating overeating, any kind of thing like that, right. To get away and to escape the actual problem is, you advocating that people just go in straight in and tackle that problem? Like.

When they’re feeling stress, maybe it’s before a game, maybe it’s after a game, maybe they performed really bad and they’re gonna get benched. I don’t know, how do people, do you like, hey, sit with it? Or are you like, no, we’re not gonna fart around as my dad says, we’re gonna actually go in and do some about it.

Dr. Cauthen (42:47.557)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Depending on situation, but I definitely say feel your feels. That’s my thing because we only feel an emotion for 90 seconds. So you can sit for 90 seconds to feel how you’re feeling. now if you’re like in the midst of a game and interaction, you don’t have time for that. Take a quick breath and reset. but the first part is like, just check in with yourself. Like you can take a minute to take a breath cycle and calm back down and then realize like, okay, is this helping hurting? What do need to go do right now? and then eventually, yes, you have to make movement. We have to have action. You know, we can’t just.

Do nothing. You know, that’s the whole root of mental illness or when we talk about individuals have, you know, things that are going on is it’s the inability to solve a problem. And so if I’m telling you, Hey, in order to solve problems better, have to be able to utilize breath work. have to calm your mind down. You have to be able to then be able to access that process and think clear. We can’t be in a reactionary state of high stress. We actually have to be calm.

Skot Waldron (44:03.374)
So my daughter’s coming home the other night. I picked her up. It’s really stressful day. These rehearsals she’s doing for this musical and she’s just like, just not in good space. Right. And she’s just like going off on certain things. I said, sounds like you need to just take a breath. You know, like, do you not do box breathing? And she’s like, yes, because she watches YouTube all the time. So she knows how to do box breathing. And I was like, do you want me to do it with you? And she’s like, absolutely not. And I’m just like,

Dr. Cauthen (44:27.27)
Yeah.

Skot Waldron (44:33.13)
Okay. That’s cool. And you know, in those moments, I will tell you. It sounds good beforehand, but in the moment, I will say that even though she knew how to do a box breathing and it probably would help her. was like, I don’t want to do any of that. Like I just want to be mad and I just want to be frustrated and I’m stressed because I’ve had a long day and all these other things. Right. and that’s, think part of us, is it takes so much intentionality and effort, you know?

Dr. Cauthen (45:07.046)
Yeah. Like in that moment, I’m like, yeah, okay. Good intention with the box for them. Like maybe just go and give her a hug. Physically contain. She won’t write, but you can be like, Hey, I need a hug. Like, Hey, like, you know, like, and then in challenging moments, I’ve had most too, like, I’m like, all right, you want to talk about it? Let’s be mad. Like, let’s be mad. Be mad. I’m going to set a timer. You can be mad. Let’s go. And then they’re like, well, that’s annoying too.

Skot Waldron (45:14.38)
He definitely didn’t want that. Yeah, yeah.

90 seconds, she’s allowed to be banned. 90 seconds.

Dr. Cauthen (45:29.572)
Yeah. And then I teach them that, right? Like I had a softball team and we had the 92nd box or had a soccer coach who had his like 92nd box where you go in the box, you take a breath and then you get out and they don’t even stay in it that long. It’s just the physical act of that, right? Like the language in our house is like, take a cool down breath. You know, and you might have to say it a couple of times and it’s annoying, but it’s like, you know, it’s got to work. But if they’re going to just keep going, I’m like, all right, we want to be mad. Let’s be mad. And they’re like, I don’t really want to be bad. That’s ridiculous. The whole point is you switch them into a different emotion.

You get their brain on a different pathway. So I always think the braid is like a road. And if we stay on a road for so long, we’re going down a toll road. And I was like, yeah, okay. Well, if that toll road is not getting you where you want to go, you have to exit. So get into a different emotional state. Like my 11 year old was moody the other day. was like, dang, she’s so moody. And my husband was taking her to school and he just kept on clicking her seatbelt. He said, buckle up and buckle up. And she was getting so mad, but eventually she broke and laughed and she was like, all right, this is not helping.

Skot Waldron (46:24.322)
Wow. I like that. I like your, I like your husband’s approach. That was good.

Dr. Cauthen (46:28.314)
Yeah, I asked him how he did. goes, I know where she came from, meaning he knows how to react with me. So he knows like eventually get like, get her so mad that she can’t be mad any longer. You just burn out the fuse.

Skot Waldron (46:33.901)
Yeah, yeah.

So what you’re saying is that every break room and every corporate office should have a 90 second box in it. Yeah. Take the 90 seconds. Be mad. Go into your box.

Dr. Cauthen (46:46.566)
Yeah. Or like a mantra, right? A coffee break. It’s like taking 90 seconds, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Take your 90 seconds. It’s cool. Be sad. Do what you need, right? Feel it. Feel your feels.

Skot Waldron (46:58.39)
Yeah. Instead of dismissing them and saying, over it or what’s your problem.

Dr. Cauthen (47:02.502)
or ruminating over and over to Odin again, yeah.

Skot Waldron (47:05.036)
Yeah, yeah, not good. Not helpful. What’s your big push right now?

Dr. Cauthen (47:12.038)
I think it really is kind of seeking stillness. That’s kind of a path for me is teaching people how to seek stillness just to be, because then that’s a step into opening doors for much bigger conversations.

Skot Waldron (47:24.002)
That’s awesome because you know what? I think we look at athletes and we even like we idolize them. We say, that’s our hero or we, but I want every single one of them. When you see them in the locker room before a game or whatever, they’ve got headphones on and everybody’s like, what’s your pregame music? And, and they always had these rituals, you know, like I had one, like every time I went on a soccer pitch, I took a little piece of the chalk on the sideline and put it in my sock. Like it was, it was like a, ritual, like a thing, you know, that we do.

Dr. Cauthen (47:51.61)
Mm-hmm.

Skot Waldron (47:54.038)
And then in the, in the corporate space, when we have to perform, when we, because it’s a mindset, we got to get into it. Like what’s our mode to switch to get into that thing and the corporate space, we just kind of like, we rushed to work. Then we rush out of work and then like, we just go here and we go there and we do this and we do that. we’re like, prep work for work seems like weird. You know?

Dr. Cauthen (48:18.693)
Mm-hmm.

But I was gonna say, imagine if you have a big speech or presentation, you’re practicing that in your car, in the shower, you’re doing it. Like everything is a performance. We’re always doing these things, just if you started to be an intentional about your routines, you’d be more effective, you’d be less stressed.

Skot Waldron (48:37.432)
So agree. I totally agree. And if you’re not doing it, then you’re either really naturally just good at that thing or you’re just a little overgrown or you’re just done. Yeah. You’re just like, whatever, whatever, or you just don’t care. You’re apathetic about it. So really cool. So your book though is who’s your book for?

Dr. Cauthen (48:44.034)
Yeah. Or you get burned out, you’re

Yeah, so, you I wrote it for everyone. You know, it’s a really unique book. The first 12 chapters emotionally breaks, like brings you into what trauma is. And if trauma had stages like grief and loss, I take you through what a victim of trauma goes through, all the things that they go through. And each chapter starts and ends with a journal entry. And then it psychologically breaks down what you’re going through. Because I really want people to, those that lost their voice or been living with trauma in isolation, like to feel seen and heard. At a human aspect, everyone just wants to feel seen and heard. So I wanted people to be like, my goodness, yes, I felt that. Thank you for giving me words that I could make meaning of. And for those 30%, because 70 % of Americans report feeling some sort of trauma. For the 30 % who haven’t ever experienced it, now you can relate to someone better because you’ve now understood it differently and you can connect to it. And then the second half is really this call to action.

I use sport as a microcosm of society of what it looks like. And if we continue to do these things in sport, we’re going to traumatize our athletes and humans. But it’s just an aspect of if we do this in life, organizations, anyone. if you’re not an athlete and you’re not parenting an athlete, like you still probably could connect to this because you’ve went through something. You did sport at one point, you work in an organization, like you can understand and connect with humans better.

Skot Waldron (50:19.448)
So good. That’s awesome. Well, good luck with your movement. I think it’s needed not only in the sports space, which it definitely is because I think they get a little bit more of a pass than I think in the corporate space. That I think that there’s something there because I think these generations coming up, they deserve better. And in both spaces, we’re talking about the dynamics of what’s being communicated to them.

Dr. Cauthen (50:22.96)
Thank you.

Skot Waldron (50:47.918)
And how that shapes and, uh, heard some studies that talk about, the, the way someone is grows up, um, their success in life. Some of the things are heavily impacted, not by their friends, but by the adult mentors and people around them. Their teachers, coaches, parents, friends. I mean, friends, parents, um, those.

And those adult people are really what are going to shape those kids growing up.

Dr. Cauthen (51:23.236)
Yeah, mean, we talk about it, you know, takes a village, but it goes back to attachment style and creating that psychological security. And if you don’t have a secure home base and it doesn’t have to be mom and dad, right to your point, it could be the neighbor, it could be the kid’s best friend’s parent. But if you don’t have a secure person that is trusted, that can emotionally hold things when you’re a child and be there for you consistently, we see how that can be pretty problematic. So you want an environment that is creating a space that kids can grow and make mistakes and learn and have a secure foundation of people coming back and being there.

Skot Waldron (51:57.678)
You’re a rock star when, when, uh, people want to just beat down your door and get in touch with you. Where do go?

Dr. Cauthen (52:04.162)
you know, Dr. C mindset at Instagram is a, as constant, I’m constantly putting out, you know, content on there. People DM me on there. that’s an easy access or on LinkedIn as well. those are two prime spots that I’m con I love to give and give information. So, you know, you’ll see some catchy motivational mindset videos on there for everyone. Yeah.

Skot Waldron (52:21.23)
Cool, I love it. I love catchy mindset videos. you know what? I think a lot of people do too. Very cool. Hey, Dr. C, thanks for hanging out. I appreciate you.

Dr. Cauthen (52:27.802)
Yeah, they’re right, right?

Thank you so much.