Unlocking Promoting From Within With Kit Gray

Skot Waldron (00:00.078)
we can go with that and then, just kind of dig into, the, the go on public thing. I mean, Rand was talking about that obviously with Moz and S and his startup, and how he built that. which I think is, is really fascinating, really interesting, as well. So, okay. Well, we're going to explore this topic a little bit. We'll probably, you know, we go 25.

Kit Gray (00:18.746)
Yeah? Yeah.

Skot Waldron (00:29.518)
ish minutes, 25, 30 minutes.

You're familiar with Riverside. I'm maybe assuming. Yeah. So, you know, pixelation on either side, it's recording high res. So, you know, don't worry about that too much. If I say something.

Kit Gray (00:37.082)
Mm -hmm.

Yes, yeah.

Kit Gray (00:46.362)
Do you put this out as a YouTube and as a podcast or just podcast?

Skot Waldron (00:56.846)
Yeah. No, I do both. I, I'd be both. So I'll yeah, I'll do YouTube. it'll launch out YouTube first and then I drip it out. So go YouTube first and then it goes on the podcast and then it'll go out through my email. A few weeks out LinkedIn, it'll go out. So I, I don't do everything at once on one big drop. I kind of drip it out over time.

Kit Gray (00:58.234)
Okay, great. That's great.

Kit Gray (01:22.142)
Sure. Okay.

Skot Waldron (01:24.302)
So, okay. So yeah. And then when, when I hit stop record, make sure you stay on in case it, you know, craps out on us here.

Kit Gray (01:33.946)
Yep, no problem.

Skot Waldron (01:40.334)
Have you been able to hear me ever since I hit record or is it messing up?

Kit Gray (01:43.93)
Yep, we're good.

Skot Waldron (01:47.054)
You're good. Okay. All right. It looks like your side is a little slow on the upload. What may happen is when we stop recording this happened in the past too, where we stopped recording. you may just need to mute your mic, turn your camera off and just leave the browser open until it finishes uploading. It's a little glitchy, but kind of what has to happen to make sure it finishes up. What is that? Cool.

Kit Gray (01:48.026)
Yep.

Kit Gray (02:11.034)
No problem.

Kit Gray (02:15.194)
Sure, no problem.

Skot Waldron (02:16.878)
Alright man, OK, you ready to do this?

Kit Gray (02:18.586)
All right, I'm ready to go. Let's do it.

Skot Waldron (02:24.046)
Okay, here goes.

Skot Waldron (02:28.91)
Kit, so good to have you on the show, man. Welcome.

Kit Gray (02:31.29)
Hey, thanks, Scott. It's a pleasure to be here.

Skot Waldron (02:37.294)
Let's get introduced to you. Tell us a little bit about your background. Tell us where you come from and why we should listen to the rest of this episode.

Kit Gray (02:47.386)
Well, thank you. I run a podcast network called Podcast One. You can find us on the NASDAQ at PODC. That's PODC is our stock symbol. We have about 200 podcasts in our network. We have anywhere from five to seven million monthly unique listeners to our network. We have over 30.

You know, a million downloads on a monthly basis. You know, we work with such talents as Adam Corolla, Dr. Drew, Jordan Harbinger, the Lady Gang group. A &E does a bunch of podcasts with us. You know, we try to launch about a new podcast every every two weeks. And it's just been a fascinating run. I started the company about 15 years ago in my garage.

still in my garage, but a different garage. So it's been an amazing run. I started it because I'm a fan. I actually sold radio and digital for iHeart and some of their divisions over the years in Boston, New York, Los Angeles. And I became a huge fan. And this was back when podcasting was a little different. You had to download it on your computer and

drag it over to what was an iPod because iPhones really didn't exist. And if you wanted to play it in your car, you had like those old tape players, if you remember, that would connect to your iPod and wires everywhere. And it was really a thing. But I knew if there was a certain amount of people doing that, like I was, that it's extremely valuable to advertisers. And I've always believed in endorsement radio. So...

And for many reasons, right? The connection, I was talking to my sales manager actually this morning, my CRO this morning about, you know, the sell points of podcasting and why it's so valuable for advertisers. And, you know, we can go into that topic and how that's evolving for sure. But that's why I started the company. I was able to partner up with a guy named Norm Pattis who started Westwood One.

Kit Gray (05:11.482)
We built the company raising some money and working with some groups like Hubbard Broadcasting. And then we were purchased about five years ago from a company called LiveOne. Basically, I still run the company. I am the president of the PodcastOne division. And really, we've got about 45 employees across the country. And...

We just love the business. We've gotten into scripted series. We just sold actually one of our first shows, Barnum Town. If you haven't had a chance, take a listen to it. You know, Kyle McLaughlin is the star. It's a really fun show, but Paramount just bought it. So that's really exciting. That's a whole new different business for us. We have...

a great sales team, we have a great marketing team, we host our own shows on our own platform. And it's really been a great experience. The podcasting world is evolving. Now it's YouTube and it's just amazing because people through the pandemic just got used to watching things like our conversation right now. This was normal. You had Jimmy Kimmel.

And all the late night guys doing exactly what we're doing from the comforts of their home. And people are now accustomed to that and that experience. And you don't need hair and makeup, although Scott, you look great today, but you know, that kind of stuff. Like you don't need to do that. It's now, it's what's normal, right? And the costs are really down. So it's really efficient in terms of producing great content that people consume. So.

You know, we're really bullish on the future. We love the medium. We see more and more dollars coming into the space. We see more and more talent coming into the space. Numbers are growing, especially with that sweet spot of 25 to 44 year olds that advertisers want. And, you know, that's our company.

Skot Waldron (07:30.542)
So you were like, you were like going, hold on, we're downloading these episodes and I think this is going to be a big thing one day and I'm going to create a company out of this thing. I mean, how many quote unquote podcasting companies were there when you launched yours?

Kit Gray (07:49.274)
Zero. Zero. I was the first person to bring in, go to meeting, go to My PC, which is a Citrix based company, Legal Zoom, Stamps .com. You hear those great Stamps .com reads by people like Bill Burr and Mark Maron and Adam Carolla. That really launched this being a valuable monetization structure. And I...

I worked with advertising agencies that I knew through my past life working with iHeart. Much of it was what you hear now, right? Use the code Adam to get free shipping or 10 % off. It's evolved, of course, but that's where we call it direct response advertising, where they saw tremendous, tremendous return on investment. Typically the DR shops, as we call them, or the agencies would buy

you know, overnight radio, overnight TV, low CPMs. But when they saw the ROI of the endorsement through podcasting, it really changed the business. A good friend of mine, I was actually on the phone with him yesterday, who ran a company called AdResults out of Houston. Russell, he's been a good friend for 15 years now. We started doing it with Pro Flowers back in, I think it was 2009.

Valentine's Day and he laughed at me when we said, hey, it's going to cost a thousand bucks a read on Adam Carolla. And he's like, there's no way I'm paying that. That's more than what I would get on a morning drive on K -Rock in LA. And I'm like, well, all right, let's put a, what they call a CPA cost per acquisition deal in front of us. And, you know, he, he basically said, all right, any, anybody that uses Adam's cook will pay you 15 bucks on it. And,

They wound up writing us a check for $35 ,000. And as he read spots for one week leading up to Valentine's day, and that's when we knew this was a business. He and I have really grown both of our businesses over the years together on many, many accounts just like that. And now there's competitors and obviously people like Joe Rogan and hosting platforms and the businesses.

Kit Gray (10:11.482)
really excited the audio space and the radio world, giving new opportunities for these companies to evolve because really, I mean, who the heck listens to live radio anymore? I'm sure as hell that 20 to 35 year olds, they don't. I mean, my radio friends will hate me for saying that, but that's the truth. So we've had to find different ways to reach people.

There's still a value to radio, but I would never buy the fifth or sixth commercial in a five, 10 minute break. So I think it's opened some opportunities to use that content, which is great content on the radio. I still listen to radio, but as podcasts forms, to monetize it a little differently, to create communities and evolve these companies into where the...

media consumption world is going.

Skot Waldron (11:14.446)
And then to go public. I mean, how many, I'm going to say this too, because I haven't that, that surprised me initially too. And talking to you, I was like, Whoa, wait a second. You're you're actually public. Like you've gone like the whole shareholder thing and like NASDAQ thing. And like, you're, you're out there. Like that's, that is, that's pretty bold as well. So what, what was the.

Kit Gray (11:17.818)
Mmm.

Skot Waldron (11:43.374)
thing that made you go, huh, let's launch this thing. Let's go public instead of keeping it private. And then, so yeah. So like, why did you go that route? What was the advantage for you and for the company?

Kit Gray (11:56.602)
Yeah, so it's a great question. I had never done anything like that. It's still very new. I love it. I love talking to our analysts and our finance people and doing conferences. I've got conferences next week where I'm talking to people about why it's such an exciting space to be in. And it's a lot of what I just talked about right there, right? Advertisers are seeing great ROI's. There was a great article today on

how great podcasting performs compared to other mediums. And at the end of the day, that's what's so exciting, right? So I love that. The reason why we went public is that I always had envisioned the company not being owned by me or certain people. Our design with our talent is based on partnerships, right? We have...

In many ways, revenue shares for our partners. So we're duly invested in the success of the program in terms of advertising revenue, audience growth, and so forth. So when we have these Adam Carolas, these Leighton Gang, these Jordan Harpiger relationships, I very much wanted them to partake in the upside of the company, right? And everybody that we go out and acquire representation rights or do deals with.

We wanted it to be a community. We still want it to be a community. We're a community in many different ways. We work together all our shows in different ways, packaging, like -minded podcasts, advertisers, promoting with each other. So in my mind, getting everybody swimming in the same direction, owning a piece of the company, being able to go out and offer it to the public who are fans of

our network and our shows and going that direction was really something that was intriguing for us. When we go out and offer podcast deals moving forward, we're able to offer them shares in our company. So we're undervalued, I believe, right now. And if we give a bunch of shares that...

Kit Gray (14:17.306)
You're going to give them money, you're going to give them shares, you're going to give them promotion. There's all these different tiers of value that we bring to a potential deal. And one of the upsides is having that equity in the company. So that's how we looked at it. And we still believe that's just a great thing. And we're the only publicly traded company in the United States on any of the financial markets.

So it's a really neat place to be.

Skot Waldron (14:50.702)
That's really cool. Really cool. so congrats on, on that. yeah, you said it's fresh. I mean, September, you know, September of last year. So, you're still getting your feet wet on that one. so well, good luck on that journey and, building and scaling from there. tell me about your philosophy of how you've built and sustained a company. you've gone public.

Kit Gray (14:55.706)
Thank you.

Kit Gray (14:59.514)
Yeah. Yeah. yeah.

Skot Waldron (15:19.438)
with 45 employees, you still run the company. You still do a lot of things within the company. from, you know, the C -suite level, but tell me about your philosophy of promotion and acquiring people and. You know, people are the thing that help us grow, you know, they, they're the, the, the key to helping every business thrive and grow.

Kit Gray (15:39.962)
No doubt.

Skot Waldron (15:46.03)
What is your philosophy on people and how you built your company?

Kit Gray (15:50.906)
You know, we're a talent driven company. We'd be nothing without the talent, not only on air, but our staff. We're really proud of our team. I'd be nowhere without them. They, you know, we've been really fortunate on the content side that most of our shows are our biggest and best, as I say, have been with me for seven, eight, nine years. Adam Carolla and I have been friends and business partners for almost 13 years now, maybe even longer.

But that's only half of it, right? The team is really where, you know, my production team, my marketing team, my sales team, my management team, our tech team, our talent acquisition and management team, those guys and girls have been with us for, you know, seven, eight, nine years. People have left and come back. Even people that have left still

find themselves coming to our events, to our studios. They feel, you know, that we're part of a family. My, my, you know, we've never had the most money. We've never had the most money to go out and acquire the biggest and best shows or the biggest platforms. That's okay. We know our niche. We know we've got a great team. And what we've done is we've been able to hire really smart people that, you know, start in and,

get to get their feet wet and then build up. I'm really proud of that. I mean, we've had people like Sue McNamara, who's our CRO, who's run CBS National Sales, Howard Stern's National Sales for years, a real pro in the world. She's been with us five or six years now and she's built a team. We've been able to grow that team, but really build up that team.

right? And we've been able to do the same in the tech world where we've hired people that have built up. So our head of marketing, our head of tech is now, they're now people that started with us four or five, six years ago, you know, at a, at a junior level, and they're now running their divisions. And I love that because they've been able to grow. They feel like they're part of the company. They all have stock in the company too. And,

Kit Gray (18:18.906)
That's how I feel. If somebody in production wants to get into sales, I'm good with that. If they want to try that, all right, that's great. They're showing initiative and they can get in the system and learn and understand that and go and grow. I never want to close any doors. If there are ideas or concept, my door is always open. My phone is always on. We always talk things through the positives, the negatives.

And in many cases, I let my team do their job. I'm not a micromanager. I expect hard work, results, and everything anybody else would, but I'm not going to sit here and say, hey, what did you do this week? It's not that. I trust my team. I trust my team that they've learned and risen through the ranks and understand the business. And that's why we've seen such great success.

Skot Waldron (19:14.606)
So this idea of promoting within, why have you done that? I mean, you use the word trust here at the end of what you were just saying. You trust your people to get their stuff done. I would assume that's that is because you have known them for so long. You've promoted from within that you've.

Built up that trust. You feel like that's an advantage, to having it, or is there another reason why you feel like you trust your people or why you promote from within?

Kit Gray (19:45.849)
I've been able to give opportunities, right? As they, they, you know, where, where they've been able to go get opportunities that, you know, maybe I haven't even seen, right? So, I think that's important when you build a startup company, and then run a company is that you have to trust your team. And if you don't, they're going to go crazy, you're going to go crazy and you're not ever going to get anything done. so it's, I think it's really important that you.

especially in this world now, I think because you're not in the same office every day, people are scattered all across the world. We use technology that you just can't do that. And I think with this generation, you can debate the positives and negatives of those 20 to 35 year old workforce and how they see the world. But I...

If you want to be successful in business, you have to see the world through their eyes. And I think that's really important. You have to give opportunities. This isn't a world where, I mean, my dad has worked in the same job he's had forever. Same with my mom, right? And that doesn't happen anymore. So if you want to build within and give opportunities and make sure you have longevity, which builds trust, you got to build from within and you got to trust these people and you got to question them.

but you got to listen to them and you got to let them go do what they believe in. And if you don't, you're going to just have this revolving window of people and training and time and stuff like that. So I very much, I believe strongly that we will build from within and we still always take new people and new ideas, but.

it's somewhere where they have to kind of fit into our system, fit into our family and kind of grow from there.

Skot Waldron (21:47.342)
Why do people stay with you so long?

Kit Gray (21:50.522)
Gosh, I think it's a combination of this is a really fun place to work in terms of, you know, it's a great story. You know, people love podcasts. I always tell people like if you're stuck at a family event or some kind of reunion and you have a hard conversation that you want to get out of, ask somebody what podcast they listen to and you'll see their eyes, you know, light up and...

And, and I think that's, you know, the opportunity here. You've got, you've got, you know, new initiatives. You've got the opportunity to grow. you get to talk to some really interesting, smart people. I think, I think it's a combination of that. I think it's also a combination of, you know, I think live one is a great parent company for us. I think they, they do a lot of things to support, our, our team.

you know, with HR and, you know, flexibility and holidays. And again, I don't micromanage. I think that has a lot to do with it, you know, and maybe, maybe people like working for me. I don't know.

I hear it, but I'm never, I'm, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm never gonna, you know, like I hear it that people really like working for the company and that's great. You know, that's, that's a really nice feeling. It's, it's, it's a really nice feeling. It brings a lot of joy. It also is really hard, right? Like, you know, you, you,

Skot Waldron (23:02.926)
You don't know if you ever asked man, you ever asked kid. Hey, do y 'all like we're going to be.

Kit Gray (23:31.194)
you know, when you take the losses and you got to succeed, like you got a lot of weight on, you got 45, you know, families that you're, you know, helping support and run, you know, it makes you stay up some nights and kind of worry, you know, going through the pandemic and like everybody else did, it was hard, but I think we all survived and fought on. And I think where you got a bunch of winners. And I think that's why people like this and like working with us.

Skot Waldron (24:01.486)
How are you going to keep your focus on the people, keep people happy, enjoying working for you and the company while still also answering now to your shareholders? that's a delegate balance that, I'm sure you're getting introduced to at this point. how, how are you planning to manage that?

Kit Gray (24:25.434)
Okay. So it's twofold. We have, I have, a team of, you know, probably six or seven managers that, are fantastic. You know, they, they over the last five, six years have learned the business inside and out. They know more about their specific division than, than I do. So I trust them. I trust them on their judgment. I trust them on.

the initiatives, I trust them on getting things done and they look out for me in many, many cases of personnel. And you know what, if I'm needed, they call me and we discuss it and we figure it out together. On the flip side of managing the financial community, well, it's the same thing. I need to get our analysts, I need to get investors understanding and being part of that same family.

right? And understanding that this group that is leading our initiative from quarter to quarter is how we're going to get there. So we're really lucky. I mean, we have three analysts right now covering us. And, you know, they're very close. We have them come to live shows in New York City. We have them come to our studio in Beverly Hills. We have them meet with our management team.

These are, you know, it's all sales. At the end of the day, I'm a sales guy and, you know, making them feel special, being part of the team is going to give us great success down the road, or I believe that.

Skot Waldron (26:11.214)
What advice would you give to those out there that are building their companies right now? They're out there, they're trying to scale, they're trying to understand what the next step is. Maybe they want to go public, maybe they don't want to go public, but the idea of how do we take our company to that next level, whatever it is?

Kit Gray (26:34.458)
That's a good question. It's a lot of what we just talked about, right? You can't do it all on your own. You're obviously a special person if you're able to build something like that and understand there's a need in the marketplace and build demand on that. You've got a vision and there aren't many people that have that.

Sometimes you back into it, sometimes you just see a great opportunity and you go. My advice would be build a great team around you that trusts, will give you good judgment, will give you good recommendations. At the end of the day, it's still gonna be your call, but make sure you have a team around you that's gonna be honest, truthful, tough on you, demanding, but love you and move forward with you no matter what decision you make.

Skot Waldron (27:34.254)
What advice would you give your, you know, 10, 15 year past kit? Like the thing that you know now that you wish you would have known then.

Kit Gray (27:45.274)
boy. Make sure your family, your loved ones are still the priority. You're nothing without the support of your wife, your mom, your dad, your brothers, your sisters, and your kids. And that is still at the end of the day why you do this. It's not for your ego, for your...

for everything that we've talked about. It's just remember those family members got you here and they're gonna be there with you no matter what, hopefully. So just keep an eye on that. They're the most important thing and stay with that.

Skot Waldron (28:32.878)
Kit, I hear your heart, man. It's, it's really cool to hear it. And I, I wanted to ask some questions that pulled that out because I think it's important that people hear it. you built a company, a successful company on that heart and the heart for your people and the heart for the company, the heart for the industry, the heart for the people you're serving, et cetera. And I think that that is important as a, as a.

Kit Gray (28:35.738)
Thank you.

Skot Waldron (29:01.006)
I just, as a distinct differentiator, of what may set you apart from some others that, are just pushing for the dollar. of course you need to be profitable. You need, you need, you need to be profitable to sustain the livelihood you want and the freedom of your people and to make sure everybody gets paid and your shareholders get a return. I mean, it's really important. but as I see it, stick with the heart. I think that that's.

Kit Gray (29:10.842)
I appreciate that. Yes.

Skot Waldron (29:30.734)
gotten you this far. I think it'll continue to carry you, man. So thanks for being here. Thanks for showing her.

Kit Gray (29:35.546)
It means a lot. Thank you, Scott. Yeah, really, that means everything to me. Thank you.

Skot Waldron (29:41.55)
That's cool. But people want to talk to you. Why would people want to call you? Who are you looking to call you? What, what's the next step for them?

Kit Gray (29:52.634)
Well, you know, we love grabbing podcasts, growing our network. So if you've got a good podcast and you feel like you could use the support of being in a network that can help promote you, help monetize your show, host your show, we would love for you guys to reach out. I'm an open book. You can send me an email, KIT at.

podcast one that's one .com. I'm happy to forward any of that to our content acquisition team. We just love the support. I mean, take a look at our stock. We're undervalued. Hopefully, it has a good rebound. I think it will. We're performing really well. We're off to a great start this year. So, take a look at us.

You know, we're listening to our shows. We're nothing without people listening and sharing our shows. So that's how we can move forward.

Skot Waldron (30:57.262)
Awesome. Give me one show you're listening to right now that may or may not be on your network. Of course you want to promote the shows on your network, but give me, give me a, give me a show.

Kit Gray (31:07.898)
okay. I forever, you know, Jordan Harbinger is a dear, dear friend of mine. He has a fantastic show. He is a great interviewer. He has got a, he does a great job. The guy works extremely hard. Every dollar he makes, he puts back into his show to promote it, to grow it, to get new listeners. I learned something from him every time I do listen to his show.

And I'm not only saying that because he's been with us for, I don't know, seven or eight years. It's a really good program. It's the Jordan Harbinger Show. You can find it on Podcast One or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Skot Waldron (31:50.478)
Beautiful. Awesome. I just wrote it down. All right, man. Check it out. Check it out. Well, thanks kit. I appreciate you being on, it's been really good to meet you. Get to know you a little bit better. I, I enjoy these conversations cause you know, where else would we have met? You know, where else would we have met? So super, super great.

Kit Gray (31:53.914)
Alright, cool.

Kit Gray (32:07.706)
That's right, that's right. Well, Scott, you're doing great stuff, man. Keep it up and we're looking forward to doing more with you and I'll introduce you to our entire team so we can get you on some more shows and help you grow. That's what we do.

Skot Waldron (32:24.078)
Thanks, kid. I appreciate you, man. Take care.

Kit Gray (32:25.242)
All right, buddy. Take care.