Hello, welcome to another episode of Unlocked. I'm Skot, and today we're going to talk about unlocking the potential of people, and I love that topic because it is so relevant to everything that we do in our businesses and in life. So today, I've got Mike Erwin on the call. Get ready for this. Okay, so Mike has worked with companies like Amazon, PricewaterhouseCooper, Stryker, the Special Forces Unit. So he's got a military background, 13 years on active duty. He served the Boston Celtics, the New Jersey Devils, and he's written two books. We're going to talk about those books today and about the dynamics of those books. He was an intelligence officer, he served three combat tours and was in the Special Forces Group, earned two Bronze Star Medals during those tours.
While he was in graduate school, he formed an organization called Team Red, White & Blue. At the end of the interview, we're going to talk a little bit about Team Red, White & Blue, what they're doing for the veteran community and the 11 years that he has spent building that organization and how solid they are now, and we're going to talk about the way he's led, the principles that we talk about in this interview and how he's used those to build this organization. On top of that, he is also the co-founder of Positivity Project, which talks about empowering our youth with building positive relationships. So that keyword relationships, we're going to talk about that and why it's so relevant for this.
There's a ton. Mike has done a ton of stuff. On top of that, he lives on a 32-acre homestead near Fort Bragg, and he has chickens and goats and dogs, and he is helping, teaches kids how to work and build relationships and focus on solitude and thinking and pondering and reflection. Very relevant for this conversation. All right. You ready? Let's go, Mike.
Mike, welcome to the show. It's good to have you.
Mike Erwin:
Hey, thanks so much, Skot. Appreciate it. Looking forward to the conversation.
Skot Waldron:
Yeah. So you just released a new book. This is your second book.
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah.
SKOT WALDRON:
And I'm interested in the dynamics between the first and second book, because they seem a little bit different right. In the sense that Lead Yourself First is kind of about this idea of solitude, and I have some of the same philosophies, but it's that solitude and how you use reflection. And then the other one Leadership is a Relationship talks about how do you get to know people and it's about that relationship.
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah.
SKOT WALDRON:
So you've taken two ideas here. How do they go together? Just let's start the conversation.
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah, absolutely. So the first book, which is interesting as both books actually, I started researching and writing on both books in 2010. So it's been a while, Lead Yourself First: Inspiring Leadership Through Solitude really spent a lot of time focusing on the challenges that the information age has brought upon leaders, and specifically how all the noise, all the distractions, all the notifications that we get, especially through our phones has made it more difficult to think hard, to focus and to reflect. All those things require mental space and mental energy to do that. So we really made the argument there in that book that solitude is the antidote to that. Solitude and stepping back from all the noise of the world and all the notifications helps you to be able to do those things better.
And the building the bridge to the second book, it's the idea that the purpose of why we need to lead ourselves first is not so that we can go lead a solitary life, but so that we can build and lead a richer life that involves strong relationships with other people. So the book that just released, it's called Leadership is a Relationship: How to Put People First in the Digital World. And it really cuts to the core of one of the biggest challenges that I see so many of us facing today in the world as people and especially as leaders is how do we not allow all those same distractions, the notifications, our phones, the nonstop flow of information, the 24/7 news cycle. How do we not allow those to impede the quality of our relationships with other people, and have us quote unquote run out of time to get to know the people that we lead?
So that's really the bridge between the two ideas. I would really put both of the books under the umbrella of tech philosophy. I'm not someone who thinks that technology is awful. I think we can all agree, there's so many positive benefits to it.q= But I do think when we're analyzing how we lead in the information age, moving forward with all the distractions and all the noise of the world, we have to really ask ourselves, what do I need to do differently so that I can ensure that I am effectively leading myself and that when I'm leading others, that I'm not just constantly trying to be as efficient as possible, but that I keep humanity at the center of my interactions with people?
SKOT WALDRON:
Wow. You've opened up a can of worms here.
MIKE ERWIN:
Yes. A big one.
SKOT WALDRON:
A big one, because now, I'm interested in this philosophy, so let's go back to that first book real quick, if you don't mind.
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah, absolutely.
SKOT WALDRON:
I know we want to push second book too, but I'm really interested about this idea of solitude is the answer to being able to think hard focus and reflect.
MIKE ERWIN:
Mm-hmm (affirmative),
SKOT WALDRON:
Which I can see that. If I'm inundated, I'm in the midst of all the activity and people all the time, that I never have time to myself to be able to do that. So let's talk about that solitude angle. How do we do that? Okay, so I like the philosophy. Sure. Great. Okay.
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah.
SKOT WALDRON:
But how am I supposed to do that?
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah, absolutely. This is obviously the big challenge. It's easy to talk about ideas in the abstract, but it becomes much more challenging to implement them. I talk about this a lot, but I don't know a single person that would disagree that they know that they should exercise, they should eat healthy, they should get at least six-and-a-half, seven hours of sleep at night. We all know what we're supposed to do, it's a lot different story and a lot more challenging to actually do it.
So when it comes to solitude, one of the big things we argue for is a couple things. One, how you start your day. And I got some young kids, so this doesn't happen all the time, but how do you tap into the power of the morning routine? If it means having to wake up 20 or 30 minutes before the rest of the house or you need to get your to-do list to get going, taking that time in the morning to the level set and to ground yourself is a way to practice solitude.
But then there's all kinds of little ways, whether you're you commute by train subway, or if you drive, or if you work from home, creating these little rituals that, for example, just because you get in the car, doesn't mean that every time you need to immediately turn the radio on, or immediately start listening to a podcast, or immediately start listening to music. You can carve out time for yourself to just think.
In the middle of the day, you can step out and you can leave your phone, you can leave the office, you can leave your home office, wherever you work, and just go walk. Walk the neighborhood, walk your property and spend time giving yourself that space where again, we define solitude as the psychological state where the mind is isolated from the input from other minds. What that means is if someone's listening to this podcast right now, this is not solitude. But if you hit pause or when this podcast is over, you say, "Hey, I'm going to take about five or 10 minutes and just process and think through what I just heard," that is solitude because your brain has just been influenced by what you heard, but the solitude aspect is actually you working through those ideas and what they mean to you.
Yes, can you do it on the fly? Can you be thinking about what I'm saying as I'm talking right now? Of course. But are you going to crystallize it and are you going to make it be as effective as it could be without solitude? Absolutely not. I don't know anyone who says that stepping back and taking the time to think and to reflect on what you just heard is less effective than doing it on the fly. Multitasking is never as productive as focusing on something in a deep way.
SKOT WALDRON:
So say that definition again of solitude.
MIKE ERWIN:
Yes. Solitude is the psychological state where the mind is isolated from the input from other minds. Again, television, books, articles, podcasts, you name it. Anytime you're processing actively what somebody else thinks, that's not solitude. So that means you can be on top of Mount Rainier, no other human being, if you make the hike on your own, within five miles of you, but if you are ripping through your Instagram feed or listen to a podcast or you're, that's not solitude. At the same token, you can be in a coffee shop or you can be amongst people, but if you got your noise-canceling and headphones on, or if you're making a list and you're reflecting on or you're journaling and you're thinking, you're thinking about your goals for the next year. That is solitude because it's just what's going on in your mind, not what's going on in someone else's mind.
SKOT WALDRON:
Really good. I love that distinction. There's a principle I teach called five gears, where we talk about which gear are you in during the day and how do you allocate the right gear at the right time to remain both productive and present at the same time, with those you love and those you work with. But this flows right into that principle, that's really, really smart, of being intentional about the gear you're in, so being intentional about setting aside that time.
There's also a principle that we teach on top of that, which are called triggers. So creating triggers in your life that start a habit or that start a ritual. So a trigger may be every time I brush my teeth, then the very next thing I do is this. Or every time I walk past my front door at lunchtime, it's a trigger... This is a personal trigger for me is to remember to go outside. I work from home, and to remember to go outside yesterday, I just realized I didn't do my thing in the afternoon, and I realized I didn't go outside until 6:00 PM. And I was like, "What in the world happened?"
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah.
SKOT WALDRON:
So creating a trigger for me that at lunch, when I walk past my door, I remember to go outside for five minutes. So creating those triggers will help with the rituals, which will help with creating that solitude that you're talking about. Super cool. I love that. I love that. Okay. So now let's talk about, shift over to the new book.
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah.
SKOT WALDRON:
Now you're talking about relationship. Okay. Getting to know the people that you work with and understanding who you're working with. So I can see where the first part, the solitude part, getting to know yourself better, understanding yourself better will then help you be more impactful when you're starting to get to know others better. So I love that flow. Talk to us about how do we do that? So the new book, talk about the guts of that book.
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah. So really the premise of the book initially started with this a paper I wrote in grad school called Leadership is a Relationship. And there was some books out there that explored like the concept about the relationship between leaders and followers and how important that is, because ultimately, leadership is not about being more efficient, it's about inspiration, and it's about helping people to be inspired, to be their best selves, to bring their best effort to the world, to their organizations. So that was the initial idea of it. Then I did a lot of my research in positive psychology, both in grad school and through an organization I co-founded called the Positivity Project, and that's where we partnered with schools all across America, about 775 of them, where the mission is to empower America's youth to build positive relationships in their life.
So a lot of my research kept pointing me back to relationships, relationships. So what we know is that relationships in our personal and professional lives are the number one driver of our life satisfaction, not how successful we are, not how much money we have, not how many accolades we amass. It's really our relationships. At the same time, relationships are very complicated. They're very challenging. They're very difficult. So it's not like, "Oh, just go be good at your relationships. If you're a leader, go be good at how you think about it and how you talk to and how you interact with other people." We're dealing with all of our own cha challenges every single day.
And as the book really hones in on, in the world today, we are busier and more distracted than ever. We've got more people competing for our time, for our energy, for our attention. We live in the attention economy, where people are constantly trying to get us to buy this, do this, listen to that, subscribe to this. And because of all that noise, that by the way, it intersects with almost all of our jobs and all of our personal lives, it has made it more difficult to focus on the person in front of us.
That person, be them literally right in front of us. Oh, by the way, COVID has made that a lot harder. But in an increasing remote-work environment, even if you're on a Zoom or on a Microsoft Teams meeting with people, half the people that I talk to on they're distracted. They're reading something else, they're not really present. They're not really there. So it's not even just like, are you present with people in the same building or in the same room, but when you're talking to someone on the phone, are you also surfing and multitasking and doing emails at the same time and half paying attention?
So the book really makes the point of, as a leader being fully present is essential to getting to, to know of the people that you leave, but also to make that person or that group of people feel that like, "Hey, I truly care about you cause I'm actually present right now." And again much like with the first book, the second book really says the information age has made it that you've got to be much more intentional about doing those things if you want to be successful. And if you want to build strong relationships in your life with your family, friends, coworkers, the people you lead, the people who leave you, you've got to really work to be present and to focus on them.
SKOT WALDRON:
This is really interesting. I just had a coaching call with somebody on Tuesday about this very topic. He's a great leader, and he said, "I feel that I'm go, go, go all the time, and when people come in and demand some of my time," maybe it's just a pop in for a few minutes or whatever, he's like, "I find that I have less patience that I'm just trying to go, go, go." He's like, "I've learned to set my phone aside because I know that..." He's like, "One of my pet peeves is when people constantly look at their phone while I'm talking to them." So he's like, "I put my phone away, but I do have my two screens up on my desk and they're sitting on the other side of my desk and I constantly find myself turning to look at them, just ever so slightly." And he says, "Oh, okay. So now I need to go a step further with that."
And I encouraged him to even go one more step further and say... Because I think what you said is really, really profound, where if people know that my attention's fully on them, they'll know that I'm for them. They'll know that I'm there, engaged and wanting to support them. So I told him, "Now I want you to verbalize, 'Hey, hold on. I'm turning off my phone and I'm shutting off my notifications so I can pay attention better.'"
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah.
SKOT WALDRON:
Verbalizing that helps them even feel like, "Wow. Okay, cool. Yeah. Take a second. Do this."
MIKE ERWIN:
Totally. I've verbalized a lot of times being like, Hey, I'm leaving my phone in the car, going out to dinner with friends, with my wife and be like, "Hey I'm..." I'll actually, like you said, say it so that you can just really communicate to people that I want to be present and I want to be focused. Again, I keep going back to this idea of the information age has made it so that it requires incredible acts of deliberate and intentional nature to make this happen.
And the data's pretty clear that our relationships are weaker today than before. COVID has only added fuel to that fire. It's very clear that yes, you can do lots of things via technology, like this conversation. There's a lot of great things you can do in a virtual space, but the reality is the magic of life for most people still happens in the three dimensional space, in the same in geographical space. That's where you sweat next to each other on a run, that's where you grab a coffee and you handshake and fist bump and hug. There's no replacement for that on virtual world.
So ultimately, being really intentional with how you deploy your in-person time is another thing, because as the world's gone increasingly down the road of remote, you got to be really smart about, in my opinion, I'm on the side of this argument that I do believe you can have a successful virtual or remote organization. I think you got to be very smart about how you set traditions and culture within your organization about how you act with one another.
And I think you got to be really smart about how you bring to people together X number of times per year, be that 2, 3, 4 times a year and carve out money in your budget to bring people together because there's no replacement for going and hitting balls at Top Golf together. There's no replacement for grabbing a drink or a coffee or a meal and talking with people about life other than work. It might not feel efficient, but that's the magic and the special side of humanity of life that I think we should be very concerned about losing that moving forward, as the Metaverse and all things technology continue to bear down on us.
SKOT WALDRON:
So my gut here is that you feel like companies don't invest in relationships enough.
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah. So both of my books, I believe that very often for most organizations, that there's the pace of life, but we have confused speed with efficiency. That doing more and more, more and more, and being in more and more meetings and being on more and more Zooms is the answer. And I believe that we should really work hard to be able to have employees have the ability to carve out some time to think, to analyze, to focus, to reflect. When I do some of my leadership development work and seminars, people are like, "Yeah, I honestly don't think I actually think about an issue for more than five minutes in a day."
I'm like, "Whew." I hear this too many times. This is not a one-off answer, this is a consistent answer.
SKOT WALDRON:
Let me stop you there. And then what is the consequence of that in your eyes?
MIKE ERWIN:
Oh, it's burnout, it's turnover. You think about all these all the things that we see, like the Great Resignation and all these things going on right now, people get burnt out. It's really hard to maintain fire and passion for the job, when you're just go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. The number of people I know who don't take lunch breaks with their teammates, and they just work through lunch. Whether you're a lawyer and it's a billable hour, or whether you're a consultant or you're just someone who's got more sales calls to make, the idea of not slowing down.
Because I come from the army, right, where every day... Now, we don't have to generate a P&L, but every day we have 11:30 to 1300 hour-and-a-half basically lunch break. And you're intended to go do that to spend time with people and to get to know them. So again, that may not be practical or reality for most people, but I think that most of us can carve out a half an hour for lunch. Especially with maybe someone that we lead and say, "Hey, let's go grab lunch. I got lunch today."
And guess what? You can get work done over that at half an hour. So again, to your point, I think that both the time to be able to step back and think and ref and reflect and the energy and the emphasis on relationships, I think both of those, because if you're looking at them through a sheerly managerial standpoint, they do not drive efficiency in the first order effect. You can't go, oh, well, you just spent time in solitude. You're like, "What did that get me?" Or you just spent time building a relationship over lunch for an hour, "What did that get me?"
Those are long-term returns on investment that you get, and management is often focused on the immediate or on the process. How does this shape influence the process? So I think to me, it's really more about organizations are focusing more on that short term and the need to just get certain amount of things done by the end of the day instead of thinking about the big picture and the longterm, which is how to retain our employees, how to get the best out of them over a longer period of time versus having them get burnt out in 18 months and then leave.
SKOT WALDRON:
Okay. Let me throw this at you. So you're talking about... And I'm a big preacher of this too, so I know I'm preacher of the choir, but I'm interested in your perspective. We spend a ton of time putting out fires, being reactionary leaders. It comes if we're managing teams and our bosses are constantly asking things of us, we're constantly in reaction mode. We know we have our things to do, but now from the top down, they're coming and they want it done now.
So we're busy, pressing all the buttons. The alarms that are going off on our dashboard, we're busy pushing all the buttons, turning off all the alarms, and we never take the time to sit back and go, "Hold on, what should I be prioritizing? What should I be doing with this information right now? What's something that I can delegate as opposed to me having to do this?" So thinking about that. Now, that being said, where do we go from there? So how do you get out of that mindset? In your world, you have a lot of irons in the fire, you're doing a lot of different things. How do you manage that aspect of leadership?
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah. It's definitely tricky. I think that part of it is how do you think about what you say yes to. So a big part of this goes back to what I use as the Eisenhower Box. The whole, is it urgent? Is it important or is it not? I think there's a lot that we can do there. I spend my time as rarely as possible... I'm not in meetings for the sake of being in meetings. I turn down and decline lots of meetings and say, "Nope, I don't need to be there for that." Now, that takes a certain amount of confidence to be able to do, because what people are like, "Why not? This is an important meeting. Why aren't you there? Do you think you're you're too important for the meeting?"
You have to be able to explain to people of this is how I see the purpose and here within Team Red, White & Blue in this organization, this is our culture around meetings. A lot of organizations, they believe that they need to have meetings on their calendar to fill up the time to show that they're doing work. And the biggest thing that I often hear from people talking about is, "Well, solitude, that sounds really great, but how do we know you're not just daydreaming or surfing on the internet?" Especially if you work from home.
So people often feel how quickly they respond to emails and how many meetings they attend, that's their proof. That's their quote unquote, proof that they're working. So again, you have to set the tone for some of those things within your organizations and within your teams that you're a leader of. For me, it's all about outcomes, and I say, "Look, I really don't care when you do the work. I don't really care." But I do care that there's a high expectation of getting the work done, and when you don't meet that bar, then we have a conversation of why not. And if the answer is, "Because I'm in too many meetings," or, "I've got too many emails," then we need to look at how we address that.
So again, there's no easy solution to be able to address how we live with and how we contend with all the pressures and all the noise of the information age. But I also do think it's important to have a strategy to separate yourself from your phone, to separate yourself from your computer. Even my phone calls, I will sit there that I'll often take, I'll get my AirPods in and I'm walking and I tuck my phone away. I'm not out there sitting there, reading through my phone. When you're having a Zoom, or you're having a meeting, or you're having a call here, the computer is right there, so it's literally never more than one, you move the mouse half an inch, you hit click and there it is.
The temptation think about this as they tell you, if you struggle with alcohol, you don't have alcohol in the house, because when you feel the desire to go get a drink, if it's there, it's too easy to go grab it. It's a lot harder to go to the store to go buy it and come home and you're like, "Ah, screw it. I'm just going to not drink it." So it's the same sort of thing because we are addicted to our technology. I know very few people who'd disagree with that. So the point is, I think you got to really know how you separate yourself from the devices and from those distractions that make it so easy to pull you away from that focus, that reflection or those people in front of you.
SKOT WALDRON:
Right on. Tell me a little bit about Team Red, White & Blue. You guys have been around 11 years now, so that is awesome. Tell me what you're doing there. Tell me about how these principles have helped you build Red, White & Blue to what it is today.
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah. So we started in 2010, same time that I started researching and writing both books. Also, the same year I became a dad for the first time. 2010 was a very busy year. But a lot of seeds were planted in that year that have bore different kind of fruit over time. It really started out initially trying to help veterans transition from active duty to the civilian world. There was lots of large-scale deployments that were still going on, lots of veterans struggling. We've evolved over the past two, three years, especially. We are less focused on veteran reintegration and transition and we're more focused on veteran health and wellness, mental, physical and emotional health and wellbeing, which is really an evergreen mission for anybody, but especially for the veteran community.
So a lot of these things, they play out in how I lead at Team Red, White & Blue. Again, both books under this umbrella of the information age, I refuse to call needless meetings. I really challenge the people that I lead to not call meetings that are not absolutely necessary. I think that when you call meetings that are not absolutely necessary, you're getting people's half attention. So now, half their energy is focused on answering emails or doing something else, and half of it's there. Whereas when you're really present, you're all in, you're fully focused. You're taking notes, you're listening, you're actively listening, you're asking good questions.
We only have one all-hands meeting. We have a staff at 32, we have one all-hands meeting once a month. We have one senior leadership meeting once a week, and then we have smaller meetings here in the there. But we very much synchronize, we have our conversation, and then it's go do the work. Then as it comes to leadership is a relationship, a couple things that we've done to really help us working in a purely remote environment, in the book Leadership is a Relationship, I offer 20 questions that you can get to know about out the people that you lead, the people that are your colleagues. They're simple things, like what's your dream job? What's the best vacation you've ever taken? If you had a million dollars, what would you do with it? Just some simple conversation starters and get to know people better discussion questions.
We all answer that questionnaire and that survey, so we all can go in there and look at and see the answers to these questions for one another. And people find common ground, "Oh, your best trip you've ever taken was to the Vatican? Me too." Or, "Your dream vacation is to go climb Denali? That's what I want to do sometime in life," or, "I did that five years ago." So building up these sparks for connection between people is really important, especially in a completely distributed remote work environment.
Then final point I would say, Skot, is we get very intentional when we come together in person, and we don't come together in person to do strategic planning. We do a little bit of that. It's really primarily focused on relationship building. So the Top Golf, that was us in Atlanta, when we came together in August. We spent four-and-a-half hours playing Top Golf together. We spent time exercising together, eating together, having conversation together, drinking beers together at the end of the day. That kind of stuff is a major priority for us when we come together, and it's not all about like leaning in and doing more work. It's really doing the things in person that you can't do when you're distributed.
SKOT WALDRON:
That's awesome. I love that you live what you're preaching and that's really powerful because I think that as your team sees that, they will learn that shows some authenticity and it helps build trust and loyalty over time.
MIKE ERWIN:
That's the goal.
SKOT WALDRON:
So if you're going to preach it, you better live it.
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah. Totally.
SKOT WALDRON:
So I think that's really powerful. How can people get in touch with you if they want to get in touch with you to help facilitate some kind of workshop or if they want to get in touch with you for the book or Team Red, White & Blue?
MIKE ERWIN:
Yeah. You can find me on LinkedIn, and on Twitter and Instagram, I'm ErwinRWB. So people can find me on any of those platforms. The easiest thing I think to do of course is pick up the copies of the book because the books, both of them are very story based. So it's not lecture, lecture, lecture, it's really telling some inspiring stories. The first book really is around a lot of historical figures, like General Eisenhower, and Grant, and Martin Luther King Jr. and Jane Goodall, and some of the things that they did. The second book is a lot more contemporary leaders. They were all people that we interviewed, who are still alive today. Those are just great ways to tap into the ideas. But yeah, you can find me on that. And also characterleadership.center is my website where you can find more on some of these things to include something called the Resilient Culture Initiative, which is something that I've been working on for the past couple years as well.
SKOT WALDRON:
Very cool. Because you don't have enough things to do, on top of chickens and other things you got going on your property there. So well have fun, Mike. This is really good talking to you. I really love the insights and how it sparked some new things for me. So great selfish desire of mine is to learn stuff from my guests, and I totally got something out of this that I'm going to implement. So thank you. Appreciate it. Good luck with the book and good luck with everything you're doing over there.
MIKE ERWIN:
Thank you so much. Really appreciate it, Skot.
SKOT WALDRON:
Technology has enabled us to do so much. So much in our organizations, so much in our global economy, so much really in building relationships. But yet also, if we're not intentional has really harmed our ability to build relationships. So that's the thing. We don't need to demonize technology, we need to demonize our use of technology and also the fact that we're not intentional about how we manage our time and how we're building our relationships. Are we taking the time to think hard, focus and reflect? So Mike talked about those things, think hard, focus, reflect.
I loved his talk about solitude and that definition of solitude. In essence, it is isolation and it is the removal of other people's ideas and thoughts. The input of other people is not solitude. Our personal reflection time that we have to be in our own heads is what that solitude's all about. We all need it and we don't get enough of it right now, which is something that we all need to work on, me included. I really need to work on that. So thank you Mike, for bringing that to our attention.
And then about how we need to put people first. How are we putting the people above the task in order to build relationships, to make sure that we are also more aligned, executing better and therefore increasing our capacity to do more? It's all on that foundation of communication and relationships, and we need to spend more time doing that.
Mike, thanks for being on the show. Really appreciate you. If you want to find out more about me, you can find, you can go to skotwaldron.com, go to my YouTube channel, like, subscribe, comment. All my interviews are there, I have some free resources, some free tools for you. You can engage with those and they will help you on your own leadership journey and helping unlock the potential of your people. Thank you very much. I will see you next time on another episode of Unlocked.
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