Skot Waldron:
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I'm really excited about this next segment. You're going to need to forgive a little bit of audio video stuff. These people are from all over the world. Yes, people, because this is a group interview. This is going to be super fun. I'm super excited about this. These are educators and consultants that run a global consultancy, and they have been in this space for a long time. Now, we're not going to talk a lot about that, although you need to check out their information and what they do, because they're super smart people.
What we're going to talk about is all about this idea of bridging remote work across cultures, across time zones, across people, across this age of what we're in right now, and how is that being shaped by our current environment? How is that going to shape the future? How does that shape our current understanding of what work is and how we interact with people? It's so, so important, and this interview brings all that together. These are some smart people that have been doing some smart things and that have some really smart things to say. So, let's get on with it. Thank you for being here. Let's do it.
Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Unlocked. Today, I've got my first group interview. This is going to be awesome. I'm really excited. I connected with Heather a little while ago, and she said, "Hey, I've got these other people. We should do a group one." I said, "Yeah, that's awesome." So that's what we're doing. I'm really, really excited. This is going to be a really interesting interview, not only because everybody on here has an accent except for me, well, maybe I have an accent to them, but they're all over the world. This is literally a global interview. There's people in Spain, we've got Heather in Spain, Fay in the UK, and Matt in China. This is awesome, and I am in Atlanta, Georgia, as you know.
Thank you all for being here. I'm really excited to do this. First of all, you've all been working together for a short time, but your experience in consulting the education space goes on for decades. Your collective experience is huge, and the way that you talk with culture, talk with people, communicate, solve problems for the education space has been epic. I want to start off by talking about, first off, the obvious thing, the remote thing. Let's talk a little bit about that and how you as a team collaborate remotely across multiple time zones. There's something really interesting there about anticipating what's going to happen versus reacting to what's already happened on a global level. Heather, do you want to jump in first and kind of talk about that dynamic and what that means for you as a team?
Heather Roberts:
Sure. I think what's interesting about working remotely is that it has its advantages and disadvantages. They're kind of two sides of the same coin. It's to do with, I think, preparedness. We work with America quite closely, and Matt's in China, I'm in central Europe time zone. Sometimes, or most of the time, we're ahead of America, so we get this nice little bit of lag where we can time some time, get things really prepared, and we're there with our deadlines. That's great. But when it's the other way around and things are like, go, go, go in China, then we're behind. So, really, you're in that position of having to anticipate the flow of work and also the pace within those countries.
One of the things that I'm beginning to find is outside of New York, I would say that probably America has a slower pace than Europe for getting things done, and China is interesting, because it's slow, slow, slow, and then someone at the top will decide, "We need it done now," and it's everybody racing to get it all done really, really fast. You need to kind of be able to anticipate those sort of flows. Yeah, as I said, that brings advantages and disadvantages.
SKOT WALDRON:
Matt, jumping in here for a second on that and talking about America's speed, you've got European speed, you've got China's speed, and you've got to learn to adapt to all of those different cultures and the way they operate from that same point. How do you strategically do that?
Matt Smith:
Well, as you can sense, it starts to become really, really complicated. I think that is in itself, you could become easily lost in that problem. Part of the mission as a kind of remote, if I describe my role remotely operating consultant, connecting with colleagues in multiple time zones and dealing with international clients, I have to equip myself very carefully with the tools and the tactics to be effective. It does mean looking at the week as a kind of unit, and what are the objective for this week? How do those objectives marry to my colleagues and their needs and their priorities as well? This can start to get quite sensitive, so I need in some way to be a healthy advocate for understanding, communication, using time effectively.
I have, for example, my good colleague Heather on a call, we might jump around across four or five different topics just to use that call effectively for the best effect over the course of this one unit or five days. I think Heather's comment about kind of getting ahead on America is also really useful. As an individual, I have kind of operate within the framework of who I am as well. I tend to be quite effective working afternoon, evening, night time. It doesn't mean I'm necessarily a night owl, but I can kind of get things done with a clear mind at night. That dovetails really well with those time zones. It's getting quite noisy here.
SKOT WALDRON:
You're okay. Thanks for that. Yeah. It's about collaboration, right? Understanding the nature of everybody's position, where we are, what we're doing, and how to operate effectively as a team in a way that benefits what we're trying to accomplish together. The whole world has gone remote, right? In some way, shape or form, whether it was a short span back in spring time because of COVID and lockdown, or whether they've been doing that for awhile. You have to work that way. Right? You don't have the office that everybody goes into. Working in that space can cause communication issues. Fay, let me bring you in as a voice of communication. How can teams communicate more effectively? How can they make sure people feel valued? How can they make sure they feel heard and understood across multiple timezones with more working remote? How can that happen?
Fay Drew:
I think one of the dangers for some people working from home and working across multiple timezones is that they end up never being offline. I've had people join in training, and in their timezone, it's 11:00 o'clock at night, just because they don't want to miss out on the training that has been scheduled at that time. Then they're up at 6:00 and they're answering their emails because they're such workaholics and that's what's required, that's what happens. When people are doing that, then there's going to be burnout, and it's unsustainable. One of our responsibilities when managing teams in this context where you have multiple timezones and it's working from home is to ensure that people understand that they have to put these boundaries in place where there is separation from work and the home, and that just because other people are working at a particular hour, doesn't mean to say that you have to be as well.
A way around that is looking at the meetings that you're having, the times that you're having them at, the regulatory of them, and it's almost more important now when we're working from home to have those regular check ins, because you're not passing somebody on their desk and giving them that little bit of information that they need face-to-face. So, to have that sort of, not that it needs to become regimented, but there needs to be these regular check ins where people know, "Right, now's my time to communicate what I need to communicate, this information gets across, and I don't need to be there at midnight making my boss think that I'm some sort of robot." I think that those things are important.
SKOT WALDRON:
You're talking about setting up boundaries, right? We need boundaries in our life, and we need to understand that, hey, things can be recorded and we can get replays and we can kind of adjust things on our own time, but it's really important, we talk about being present versus being productive, and how can we be productive in our space of work, whether that's in the room next door where kids are eating breakfast or whatever, but also be present with our families and make sure that there's a divide and make sure that we're staying healthy and individuals and in the workplace, because that's when we're going to bring our best is when we're actually able to stay healthy. Heather, let me come back to you. You spoke earlier about that balance of work versus home personas. Right? You used to be able to keep them separate.
FAY DREW:
Yes.
SKOT WALDRON:
Fay just talked about that a little bit. Expand on that idea a little bit for me.
HEATHER ROBERTS:
Okay. There's two things that I wanted to bring up. The first one, if I can just talk about the importance of empathy in this whole kind of timezone communication and balancing work and life when you're working remotely. I don't have children and I'm not married, so I've got some advantages that my home is a very quiet space. But I do know that people have, they're working remotely right now. It might not be their usual mode of work, so they haven't really done it before, and they've got kids that they're homeschooling as well as trying to get their work done. There might even be competition for the computer, computer time and things like that. I think with whoever you're working with, you have to be empathetic that they may not be able to join a meeting, and they may not be able to be available exactly when you want.
As Fay was saying, the importance of scheduling these check ins is really important, and to kind of arrange them in spades that kind of works for both of you, and have flexibility. I think it's important, as Fay said, it's a fine balance, because you do have to put in boundaries. It's not reasonable, for example, to wake up at 3:00 o'clock in the morning to have a meeting. It has been done. But, yeah, I mean, I have done that in the past. But even though that kind of thing's not a reasonable request, sometimes you do have to be a little bit flexible because it's part of that caring about your colleague and understanding that your colleague has kids, their life is kind of getting in the way of work, and that they're in a different timezone than you. So, it's this very fine balance that you have to kind of get into.
Then the other thing was about there's people that compartmentalize their personalities for work and home. Before remote working, I was definitely one of those people. My home life is very different from my work life, and I really liked it that way. But as you're remote working, you haven't got the kind of professional environment of the office space where the people around you are suited and booted and they're working in a certain way, so you can go with that kind of way of working. You might be in your pajamas and working on your slides in a remote situation. That's not bad.
The point is that I think that you have to kind of, when you're used to compartmentalizing, you need to bring these two parts of yourself together and find that balance again, and almost find a new work routine and a new work persona. It can be challenging, because sometimes those two things don't fit. I think at home I like to be a little bit spontaneous and I maybe enjoy being a bit more disorganized, but at work I'd be very organized, and now I have to blend those two kind of parts of myself together, and that's not always the easiest. But I'm definitely getting better at it. It's a skill.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah. I can totally understand that. I think a lot of people are battling that right now. Matt, let me talk to you a little bit about how do you find employees, team members that you can collaborate with across the world, right, that are going to be able to align with your mission, your vision of what you want to do? Also, create value. You've got multiple things going on. You've got to think about your team member, I've got to think about, "Hey, I've got to bring this team member on that's aligned with my values that's also okay in working in multiple timezones, understanding multiple cultures. I've got to create value for my clients, and I also have to understand how to bring a lot of empathy to what we do and special skills to what we do." How did you bring all of that together? That sounds crazy to me. I'm trying to do it just in Atlanta and it's hard, but how do you do it on a global level?
MATT SMITH:
Right. You can feel the level of complexity and the layers to this. How do we do it, I suppose you have to be really clear about the right type of profile of person that could operate in this manner. I mean, Heather started to touch on professionalism, but from my thinking, the meaning of traditional professionalism is now being re-imagined. Now I think the onus of professionalism is no longer on how your hair is, if your shoes are appropriately tied or polished. Those things seem to fall away quite quickly in the current circumstances for being an effective remote collaborator. It starts to be more on your deep understanding of your own practice and the practice of others, whether that's empathy, as Heather described it, or whether it's just allowing yourself to be open to another person's way of doing things and trying to adjust yourself to find that kind of intersection of value.
The workplace now has evolved into this kind of merged kind of home environment where you connect with a device and the device accesses you to tasks or work. Something that fascinates me is when people say, "Are you going to work?" Where do you go to work? Recently, for me, it's like, well, I don't go to work. I do work. It's something I do. It's an action. It's not a place anymore. It's not a location. The other thing that I think is important is whether it's a new person joining the team sourcing someone that could possibly pull this off, or just the continued collaboration is just building out that deep sense of understanding of who you are and who you're collaborating with, and then, of course, we mentioned the client, and that's a different dimension to the problem as well.
But we did something very interesting at our consultancy, where we took the time to really have conversations purely about exchanging who we are. I remember one conversation with a colleague, an older gentleman from the US, and we came away having a deep understanding of each other's purpose and circumstances. He's a husband, he has certain things going on that are fundamental to his collaboration with me. I can't play around with them. I can't push him to not be the role of husband when he's working remotely at home. It's kind of omnipresent. We have to kind of build and factor those things into our practice. It makes things fascinating. For me, I don't get pissed off by it or irritated by it, I just see it as a challenge, we work on it, we build something out.
Yeah, I think there are personalities that do not suit this as well. I think remote working for some people is going to be disastrous, a disastrous way of doing things. For others, it's going to elevate them and help them to kind of come alive and show their expertise in the right kind of framework, in the right kind of environment. So, yeah, it's a super interesting world that's being re-imagined in front of us.
SKOT WALDRON:
Ye, I appreciate that. We talk about being a 21st century leader, right, and team, and what does that mean? Well, it means, number one, that we're 24/7. We're on all the time. There is no separation anymore. Even when we had a physical location to go to for some of us, we would go home and we still have phones and we still have these things that we can be watching a movie with our family and be checking our email, right? Which I don't advise you to do. But that can happen. We're on all the time. In a global economy like we are and like you are showing us right now, you're on all the time. I mean, it's 10:30, 10:00 o'clock, 11:00 o'clock at night, right, in Beijing right now. That's a big difference between my 10:00 o'clock in the morning here. So, you've got to learn to adapt to those types of things.
Number two, what you said, is that no longer are we measuring on a 9:00 to 5:00 job. No longer are we saying, "Okay, I'm going to measure your productivity by whether you clock in at 9:00 and clock out at 5:00." No longer do we do that. Right? Now it's, "How much did you get done? Did you hit the milestone? Did you hit the benchmark? Did you hit my expectations? Are expectations clear?" That's what we start to measure now. No longer is it positional authority. No longer is it the guy at the top is the one that I listen to and I'm meant to... it's now we look for mentors in all shapes and sizes to help us and collaborate and grow together. So, I really appreciate that, Matt, what you said. One thing I want to do is, Fay, I want to come back to you really quick and talk about what's the biggest problem companies are making now that you see as far as company culture is concerned? What are the biggest issues out there confronting organizations that you're working with?
FAY DREW:
I think one of the really important factor is that companies recognize that how working online and working remotely has changed the way that people communicate and feel about their jobs. What I mean by that is it used to be that if you're not in the office, you're not working, and that working from home wasn't really working. Now, people trust each other so much more, even though they can't see the other people in front of them on their computer doing their job. There's a huge growth in trust in your team members and also the people who are working for you. It has to be there. There's no option of that trust not being there. That's one thing. The other point is that I, for example, have recently taken on a number of new team members that I didn't choose. I didn't pick them. I inherited them. I had to build rapport with these people very quickly with people that I'd never met face-to-face.
They key difference that I noticed between how I was behaving with them in this context and how I would be if we were in the office environment is that we actually started, and this relates to what Matt was saying about showing who you are. We actually talked about our feelings a lot more. There was a lot more conversations about how do you feel? What is going on right now with everything, how is this impacting you? That distance that sometimes you have in the "professional" environment has to be stripped away as you reveal yourself to people online in your home context. They know a lot more about me than other people, just because I will talk about what's going on at home. Companies need to recognize these differences and use them to their advantage. That's what I would say.
SKOT WALDRON:
Okay. So, it's really about missing out on understanding each other's people and who we are as individuals.
FAY DREW:
Being more human.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yes.
FAY DREW:
It's a bit of a contradiction because it's all through technology, yet I feel in some ways we end up being more human.
SKOT WALDRON:
I was talking to my work colleague yesterday, and I was like, "Isn't this interesting? I've never met anyone in person, ever." I wonder if we'll ever meet in person. You know? He lives on the West Coast, and I'm just like, "This is so interesting to me." It's like, 20, 30 years ago, you just wrote letters to somebody and you had a pen pal. Then all of a sudden you can have phone calls, right? With somebody across the world, and just have this relationship. Now we have Zoom, and I can kind of see you, and it's one step closer to actually having a face-to-face conversation in person. It's kind of good enough for some people, but not good enough for other people.
I think that's where you're coming back to, how do we still connect as humans in a remote world? Right? I think it's important for companies to recognize that, that, hey, some people it works out great, and some people it's not quite enough yet. It's really important to understand that we need different things at different times for different people. Let me come back to you, Heather, and what are some of the issues you've seen in company culture and understanding, and some of the biggest hiccups inside organizations?
HEATHER ROBERTS:
I just really want to pick up where Fay left off.
SKOT WALDRON:
Oh, sure.
HEATHER ROBERTS:
It relates to what you're saying. When Fay was talking about how people, it's kind of weird because we're remote from each other in terms of colleagues, but we're all more human, I think that this kind of need for soft skills, it sounds cheesy saying soft skills, but it's true, this need is more important than ever. In the past, if we think about you've got the 1980s Gordon Gekko kind of character, which I think prevailed right the way through the nineties. I certainly had those kind of characters as bosses at some point. As that kind of person might be quite sort of successful in an office environment, in a traditional environment, but I think in this remote environment, it's all about soft skills. Those people who would perhaps have tended maybe to be a little bit, I don't know, undervalued and maybe considered a little bit more soft or something like that, they end up having a lot more to offer because they're the ones who are communicating, reaching out, understanding, being flexible, having empathy with others.
I think that these are the skills that really make a difference in the workplace, because it's all about collaboration. Also, people who are, how can I say, sort of have that sense of autonomy over their work that they don't need an external pressure to get things done, it's what they create, the product of what they're creating is the important thing. I think it's all of those sort of things I think that may have been undervalued slightly in the traditional workplace that now are really coming to the fore. Yeah, hurray, because I really like it.
SKOT WALDRON:
I do too. I love it, because you're right, you're so right. When we had the COVID lockdown in spring, and then we've had a lot of, here in America, the racial unrest, the things going on in our country here, and what this has done is it's called out a lot of organizations and companies that before, they were like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we don't need to focus on that vision, mission, values, purpose, all that soft skill stuff, all that fluffy communication stuff. We just need to churn it out and produce." Right? It's gone from that, to churn out and produce, to how are you treating your remote employees? Do you trust them? How are you communicating now with your remote teams? Are you collaborating better? Are you understanding each other? Are you still human? Are you still communicating well?
Then when the racial injustice stops coming, are you being called out on your values system? Are your values representative of how you truly treat your customers, your clients, your employees in your internal organization? Now all the soft skills are really coming to the forefront on how we really connect as humans, and people are starting to understand that, because people are what make our organisations work. Right?
HEATHER ROBERTS:
Yes.
SKOT WALDRON:
I think that's truly valuable, and I agree, hurray. I'm so glad that that shift has taken place. Hopefully it holds. You know? We'll see if we've learned anything in this world as a result of all of this, but I would like to turn over to Matt. Looks like Matt's switched spots here. I feel like every time we go to Matt, he's in a different location, which is awesome.
HEATHER ROBERTS:
He's in a new costume.
SKOT WALDRON:
I know, I know. It's changing his background on Zoom every time.
MATT SMITH:
No, I've just been kicked out of Starbucks.
SKOT WALDRON:
Oh, okay. They kicked you out. That's not nice.
MATT SMITH:
They don't appreciate the human relational value I offer to them.
SKOT WALDRON:
Oh, okay. I got you.
MATT SMITH:
Need more soft skills, you know?
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah, yeah. They need more soft skills at Starbucks. Matt, let me come to you, then, to talk about that. What is it that you've seen in the past with organization's cultures, company cultures that you saw as a red flag that you want to make sure you corrected inside your organization? What was it that you were like, "I am staying away from that. We are going to do things differently here, and this is the basis of who we are."
MATT SMITH:
At the heart of all of this, in my opinion, is the transition from focusing on what to how. I think how is about people, and what is about something objective. I think that's the fundamental kind of paradigm shift in all of this. What I mean by that if I expand, how I work with Heather is more interesting that what we work on. The fact of it it, I work with her on multiple projects that will, and they're kind of on a conveyor belt, so as one is completed, a new one is added. How I work with her is far more fundamental than what we actually produce. Do we still need to be productive? Yes, absolutely.
For me, that's what's changed. Institutions that can recognize this will move forward, and those that can't will be lost. I think Heather touched on that type of profile that gets very caught up in either a hierarchy or just focusing on productivity alone. But to fully engage in the dynamic and to fully maximize relational value, you must understand yourself. It's all very well understanding who you work with, but if you don't understand the best of yourself, whether it's intelligence or integrity or your energy, all of those things are kind of spinning tops that you need to manage to work effectively remotely.
Then there's the kind of responsibility thing that we touched on with trust. I think that's also hitting a whole new level how we trust in terms of collaboration. Before, it would be like cameras in the office, clock in, it's time to go home, and now it's much more about, yes, I'd like to invest in my relationship with this person towards trust, towards the maximum effect of how we do things rather than what we do. That's how I kind of see the shift.
SKOT WALDRON:
That's so good. I mean, the what to the how is really, really fascinating to me. I love that idea. I love it. I'm going to steal that from you, Matt. I appreciate that. That's so good. That's so good. I'm going to come around to Fay, and then I'm going to end on Heather here. Any thoughts, based on what we've talked about, anything you want to leave the audience with, Fay, as far as insights, as far as that gold you would love to leave with us? No pressure.
FAY DREW:
Yeah. Picking up on something that Matt said and in relation to what I've seen in organizations that I really feel like they should leave behind, and believe it or not, in a lot of organisations, there's still a huge emphasis on hierarchy, and even only recently, I've seen situations where certain people higher up have the attitude that someone from another team who is subordinate, can't contact them directly, that it needs to go through somebody else, this antiquated to completely outdated, and quite frankly, I think, insulting attitude from wherever it comes from, part of their culture that completely has no place today.
I think when people find themselves in that situation, whether it's that or another type of behavior that doesn't sit well with their values or their integrity, the thing that I ask my team to do and also that I tell myself is that I know what my values are and I know the way that I want to communicate. I am not going to bend and I'm not going to be manipulated by other people's behavior, regardless of where they are in the food chain. So, when they exhibit certain behaviors that then make me feel like I need to follow that, whether that's me or any of my team, it's really important to, A, recognize it, and then, B, stand steadfast in knowing that your way is the future and their way is soon to be history.
SKOT WALDRON:
Right on.
FAY DREW:
So, having that self belief and recognizing when it is manipulation. I see it as manipulation. That's what I tell my team, and I tell them to hang onto how they want to behave and how they want to communicate, and not be forced into corners by other people.
SKOT WALDRON:
Thank you for that message of empowerment, of strength. But I think that even goes back to what Matt was saying too, about understanding yourself first, understanding your own strengths and what you bring to the table, and not backing down from that. Right? Understanding that, hey, I have a place and I have a voice, and I need to be heard. You know what? This isn't okay. Having a safe, psychologically safe place to communicate is going to be really crucial to the workplace going forward. Heather, let's end on you. Any thoughts you want to add to wrap this up to kind of drop that gold to the audience?
HEATHER ROBERTS:
Well, all I can say, really, is that I agree with my two colleagues, that we're definitely entering a new era. This is a huge shift and a huge shape up. Things are definitely going to change. I think that what I would say is for success at work, probably a couple of things is leave the ego. Leave the ego somewhere else and be kind to each other. Be empathetic to each other, and take time to find out where your boundaries are and what your flexibility is. I think those things are really the kind of key for managing what's going on right now and for dealing with remote working in the future.
SKOT WALDRON:
So good. Everything we've spoken about here has gone to the heart of people. That's what this is all about, right? It's all about unlocking that potential in our people, be we can't do that without open communication, without empathy, without understanding, without collaboration, without psychological safety, without an aligned vision, mission, purpose. All those things that we've been talking about are hitting right on. I'm really grateful for the insights all of you have brought, grateful mostly for you being able to collaborate and coordinate all your timezones to get on this call. Right on. I really appreciate you, and good luck on everything you're doing changing the face of education and consulting those companies out there. Heather, let me come back to you. How can people get in touch with you if they want to find out more about what you do and how you can help them?
HEATHER ROBERTS:
Sure. They can visit us at panasiaeducation.com, or they can go to my LinkedIn page, which is Heather Roberts. I guess you'll have some links at the end of your show in your show notes. Yeah, come find us there. We'll be very glad to hear from you. Fay, how can they contact you?
FAY DREW:
On LinkedIn. I don't think I can give out any other contact details at the moment.
HEATHER ROBERTS:
Oh, okay.
SKOT WALDRON:
Okay. Let me just specify really quick and give you the opportunity, when would somebody contact Fay, versus when will they contact Heather? What's the difference there? Help my audience.
FAY DREW:
Just contact Heather. The best thing is to contact Heather.
SKOT WALDRON:
She'll funnel you? Okay. Totally cool. That's safe. I'm going to tell all of my clients to just contact Heather now.
HEATHER ROBERTS:
Yeah, just contact me.
SKOT WALDRON:
She'll connect us all. Well, thanks, Heather, for bringing everybody together. This has been fantastic. I really wish you guys the best of luck, and stay healthy out there, okay?
FAY DREW:
Yes, you too.
HEATHER ROBERTS:
Thanks, Skot.
FAY DREW:
Thank you.
MATT SMITH:
Cool. Thanks, Skot.
SKOT WALDRON:
I really love what Matt had to say about the what versus the how. It's not always, what we work on is fine, the output, the thing, but it's how we work, how are we collaborating? How are we working together? How are we changing together for the better? That's really, really great. Fay, talking about the undermining of communication and how we can't think like the old times, we can't be that way anymore. We've got to be here in the now. The way the future is going to operate, the way we're going to communicate in the future is going to have so much more of an impact than how we've done things in the past. We need to understand that and move on. Then, really, Heather's thoughts about that balance of work and life, and how do we bring in the soft skills that really are taking hold now more than they ever have? We've got to really take hold of that.
I'm super appreciative to this group. I hope you're able to take something away from that. If you want to find any more of these interviews, you can go to my YouTube channel. You can also find them at skotwaldron.com on my blog, and I've got them all there. If you have any questions, whatever, for this group, email them, find them on LinkedIn. Anything for me, same. Thanks for being here. I'll see you next time.
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