Unlocking The Broken DEI Trend With Jennifer Brown

Jennifer Brown (00:00.418)
Right?

Skot Waldron (03:13.04)
Jennifer, I am excited to have you today. Thanks for hanging out with me.

Jennifer Brown (03:17.288)
I'm excited, this is gonna be fun.

Skot Waldron (03:19.246)
Yeah, we're going to talk a little bit about this whole inclusive leadership thing. I guess I want to know a little bit like with the culture and everything that's going around right now, why is this, why should this still be relevant? Okay, I'm going say still because there was a huge thing during COVID and

And you know, racial stuff was happening and a lot of the, all this stuff was happening and everybody's like, Ooh, D and I, inclusive leadership. And then it's like, a second. Hold on. There's now there's companies going, no, no, no, no, no, no. We don't want to, we're not going to do that so much anymore. Like, so what's going on? Like give me, me some idea from your standpoint, what's going on.

Jennifer Brown (04:15.15)
Yeah, well, I've been in this space for 20 years, and some have been in this space 30, 40, 50 years. So I'm certainly sort of in the middle generation, if you will. And there was like a ton of people that came in in the last couple of years because of what you just mentioned, 2020, everything that happened, the reckoning, the truth telling, the sort of, yes, companies jumping in and saying, we want to be better and do better. Thank you for telling us how broken our cultures are.

And then there were all these commitments made. I think there's so much that's happened. I mean, the political realm, there's been a very organized building resistance that has real teeth and power to force companies to remove their programs, honestly. And so in my world, it's been watching them fall kind of like dominoes, which is really disconcerting because a lot of us have been consulting mainly like I do to corporations.

You know, there's nothing like a very supportive corporation. I mean, they are walking the talk, they're asking the questions, they're supporting their employees, they're on their journey. And it's gone a long way towards generating engagement and loyalty and belief in products and customer trust and all of those things. So this is a dangerous game that some of them are playing.

in terms of taking their foot off the gas because consumers are savvy, employees are savvy, Gen Z is certainly, and millennials are certainly extremely, have extremely high expectations of brands, companies, employers, have lots of choices about how they want to make their living. So what's in it for people to continue to, yes, economic necessity is a factor, obviously.

but you're not going to get the best out of people if they don't feel a sense of investment and belonging and acknowledgement. So I think it's bad decisions on the part of companies caving to pressure, also kind of moving on to the shiny object. I think there's some of that, which is unfortunately a habit for companies. Fatigue is real. And I think we need to kind of ask ourselves, how did we bring

Jennifer Brown (06:35.202)
companies along in a sustainable way on their journey towards a more inclusive workplaces. Like there was a lot that happened in the last couple of years and it was overwhelming for a lot of leaders who are already coping with a really chaotic landscape and how to lead in that landscape. And, you know, we brought a lot of information and education, but I think that we didn't accomplish true behavior change for leaders. And by the way, it's not incumbent just on the teachers and the educators like myself to

create behavior change. Individuals have to wake up and say, I want to lead differently. I need to lead differently. I'm leading different kinds of people. I am trying to lead in a chaotic and uncertain world. And what got me here won't get me there. I need to retool myself. And inclusive leadership is a part of the DNA of that new leadership. So

You know, any leader that thinks this is a fad or something that we don't have to pay attention to anymore or whatever. I think it's unwise. It's not prudent. It's limiting and it's probably dangerous and risky because the world is changing and you want to change with it and ahead of it. That's the key. And if you want to really change ahead of it, demographics is destiny. The world is changing. Your clients are changing. Your customers are changing. Your employees are changing. You know, in your family, that generations look at things differently and

I worry about the leader that is not kind of a student of what is actually happening and including this in their retooling of themselves.

Skot Waldron (08:10.918)
Well, when you look at companies like Lowe's or John Deere or Budweiser, some of these other companies that have kind of pulled back on their D and I initiatives and use of pronouns and all kinds of things, the conversations, I'm wondering what the conversations are inside those companies. you know what they're having? Like, cause they're obviously talking about this stuff, right? They're going, you know, they're going.

Jennifer Brown (08:14.946)
Hmm.

Jennifer Brown (08:19.629)
Mm.

Jennifer Brown (08:29.678)
So do I.

Jennifer Brown (08:35.63)
Yeah, yeah.

Skot Waldron (08:38.274)
Our audience, because you say demographics is the key to this whole thing. But don't you think they're listening to those demographics and that's why they're pulling back? Because that's what they say. They're saying, our audience, we're getting all this backlash. We're getting all this stuff from these constituents and these people. And then they're like, we have to serve these people. So we better pull back on this stuff. But like, is that the conversation they're having? Like what's going on in there?

Jennifer Brown (08:42.734)
Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Brown (09:06.678)
It's such a, it's such a short -term strategy. Honestly, I think they're just trying to stay out of the headlines. And it's actually not, it's actually not the demographics I'm talking about that, that if to say that a few voices or the, or the even the current customers of a company are all one demographic and we have to listen to them. That's inaccurate. And companies are there to lead towards the future and the future customer.

is not going to look like today's customer. Even if you're a John Deere, even if you're a Lowe's, I mean, I might argue it is different now, today. It's more female, it's more non -white, buying power is shifting generation to generation. The wealth is moving in our society. So, fall of money. So no, I think this is, the conversations are let's placate, this is my prediction. I have no data on this. Let's placate this for now. But no.

that our real business strategy and what we will return to when the fire has passed and when the danger has passed and moved on, because by the way, this is just a rolling kind of targeting machine that moves from one to the next, to the next, to the next. I believe companies will reinstate a lot of what they used to have because they know they cannot not do it because it is part of their business strategy. It must be, otherwise you're going to fail.

So I think my prediction is that there is placation going on. There is an avoidance of risk. Now it's risk in terms of, I guess, PR risk. But really, the numbers do not, they do not logically line up with what the companies are doing right now. It doesn't make any sense what they're doing from that perspective. So I think this is temporary and it is an avoidance of quote unquote

some sort of fear of boycotts and backlash, which by the way, haven't really materially damaged brands long -term. And this has been happening for years. It just happens to be way more organized and companies are sort of taking the pulse of this environment and saying, you know what, it's probably not the right time to continue to make these big bets. But I think, you know, things are always changing. So that's my prediction. But how is it happening? I don't understand.

Jennifer Brown (11:32.046)
the goods that someone has on these companies, that they are so powerful that they're able to literally get programs canceled that companies have been investing in for 20 plus years. Given the demographic changes, like I just described, it doesn't make a lot of logical sense. So you have to kind of look at the political winds and you have to kind of look beyond that and also understand that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.

It's companies know it's bending towards a different world. They know that. So I think this is, this is a moment in time.

Skot Waldron (12:09.934)
And I hear you saying, that they're living too much in the present. They're living too much in the reactive present of the news headlines of the political wave that's happening of whatever's happening. And your idea of lead towards the future is a bigger picture thing that you feel that companies are probably not. I'm putting a little few words in your mouth, right? But it's.

Jennifer Brown (12:18.862)
Yeah.

Skot Waldron (12:38.436)
The reactiveness of our society, the reactiveness of culture and the immediate removal of some kind of pain because of something's happening is jeopardizing our long -term growth and success as a society.

Jennifer Brown (12:52.878)
Right, beautifully put, yes. It's the long game. mean, and how good are we in our society at anything with the long game? Even as people, we get on the wagon with fitness, we get on the wagon with savings, like our substance use, like we're so, we are very, I think we're bad at this stuff as humans and as organizations, which it stands to reason, right? And capitalism rewards the next quarter. It just wants to look at,

that, right? How have you mitigated the risk of the backlash? You know, that question is not going to be the question always. It won't be. It just happens to be now. So, yeah, I think that the really great companies, the great ones, you talk about a new good to great, right? That book is so interesting to me because literally all those companies are gone. Not many of them are. But the criteria by which we evaluated strong, healthy, forward -looking cultures has really changed.

And we need to redefine what that is. And I think my world has a lot of clues to what that looks like, which is, you know, treating people as beyond, they're not just an asset to be expended. you know, and cultures, each strategy for breakfast to quote Peter Drucker. So the healthy culture we know will do more, it will produce more, it will be more creative. If people that feel seen and heard will go the extra mile and

stay and think and deeply commit to building better products or imagining what that next customer really wants. That discretionary effort is unleashed when we have a culture where there's a certain, there's a trust that's been built with each other and a caring that's been built with each other. So, you know, unfortunately capitalism doesn't tend to prioritize all those things, but to me, that's like the interstitial.

that is like, maybe it's intangible, but it is, make no mistake, it is incredibly powerful. And then you've got the business case, is customers changing, buying patterns changing, and accountability for values and walking the talk and committing to something larger than your bottom line. You know, it's conscious capitalism. We've been talking about this for 25 or 30 years. I I've been, I've been like hoping for this moment for so long and still sort of waiting for.

Jennifer Brown (15:14.216)
know, companies are the most trusted institutions beyond government. You know, look up the Edelman Trust Index. But but companies aren't leaning into that like they could and really moving the world like they could. And, you know, like it or not, capitalism focuses on on its companies. So we lionized products, we lionized brands, you know, we unfortunately. But but what is the mission of that? Why does it matter? What is the company doing? How is it behaving in the world?

How do its leaders show up? How kind of culture does it create? All of that matters. right now, just, I think people are also incredibly distracted. Companies are distracted by the fall and the election. I think it's just this kind of collective holding of breath. And in my world, we feel that because it results in, it results in a slowdown and kind of an inaction.

right now and it's a waiting for the shoe to drop. It's the waiting for the resolution and the answer. And it's, leading to, I think a lot of sitting on the sidelines to see what's going to happen before the end of the year. It's a, it's a big deal. It could have huge implications either way on the ways what companies are allowed to do legally, which has already happened because of the Supreme court affirmative action decision that basically

was part of what the resistance has used to ride into companies and force them to cancel everything. And companies didn't knew they didn't have a legal leg to stand on and they haven't had time to really think about how will we continue to develop our talent of the future and stay out of legal hot water. So all of this has happened really fast, but I don't think it's being dismantled. It's being changed, it's being moved, it's being rethought, it's being renamed.

and some of that is actually good. I know we're, lot of us are very distressed about a lot of, a lot of the change that's being quote unquote forced, but within these difficult times where we think we're experiencing a setback, there's always, there's always an opportunity for creativity and, even, even innovating beyond where we were before, like that's the way I'm sitting with it is you can be scared and you can put your head back in your shell and you can leave.

Jennifer Brown (17:35.756)
the work, can sort of give up and feel hopeless, or you can say pressure makes diamonds right now. And this is a very fertile time for reinventing a conversation for the years ahead.

Skot Waldron (17:50.106)
Well said. So you have a book, how to be an inclusive leader and it's still selling. It's not like it just sold well during like the pandemic and during all the racial injustice stuff and all that. Like it's still selling well. Well, why? is it this idea, you have this inclusive leader continuum idea that you put in there? mean, tell me why your book.

Jennifer Brown (17:56.898)
Yeah. Yay.

Jennifer Brown (18:03.596)
Yeah, yeah.

Skot Waldron (18:17.136)
do think is selling well? think a lot of other DI books might be not selling as well right now just because of the things that we're hearing and the fatigue and like you said, all the other things that are going on in society, but yours is still selling well. What's up?

Jennifer Brown (18:32.192)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. It's short, it's readable, it's accessible, it's inviting, it's welcoming. It doesn't come out of the barrel with, I think, the challenging messages around some of our more challenging messages about our work in the DEI world. there are those challenging messages are important to hear where it's really critical that we look at the problems and the isms in our society and the biases and the inequities.

Absolutely. I come from a leadership development background and organizational change and I, and before I ever did DEI, that was my discipline and it really is still my discipline. So I'm always thinking about leaders and how they pivot, how they evolve, what's hard about change, what, how they're needing, especially now to reinvent, to rethink how they show up, to get comfortable being uncomfortable. And

It's on a lot of levels. You know, it's not just how to be an anti -racist. It's like you said, it's how do I acknowledge gender identity in my teams? How do I tell my own story? How do I talk about what I don't know more openly? How do I be that transparent leader? How do I be a resilient leader when it's so challenging and I'm leading in a different way and different people than I've ever had to lead before and I'm doing all of it virtually or hybrid? You know, there's so many challenges being thrown at at leaders and I wanted

The book, think, a sort of a step -by -step, simple process to look at yourself and change, understand where you are in the system. There's multiple systems, right? And then activate yourself in a way that acknowledges that it's not easy, but encourages the reader to make sure you're still evolving. I mean, that is my big message. If you are not changing,

If you're not the shark that keeps swimming, you're going to die. And the keep swimming for leaders is keep changing, keep modifying, keep experimenting, keep having new conversations, keep meeting new people and getting to know them. Keep trying to figure out how to build trust across difference with no FaceTime because we're all separated from each other. Keep thinking about, I relevant? To me, this is a handbook for relevance. So I think I come at this from

Jennifer Brown (20:56.706)
such a constructive place. I really believe in everyone's capacity, including those who have been kind of feeling like, I'm not diverse, Jennifer. I can't contribute anything. I don't know anything about diversity. I'm very privileged in the systems I'm in and what in the world could I possibly contribute? So I'm gonna sit over here and let everybody else evolve.

My message is to those folks to say, there's so much available to you. And I'm, you know, I'm in the LGBTQ community, but and that has led to my need for allies, right. But I also am, I'd like to be considered someone who is constantly trying to figure out how to be an ally and an advocate. And I think people that look like me, people that look like you, there's an enormous, we saw all the white voters for Kamala coming, all those

Those calls were very significant because I think we're naming some new things right now as a society. We're saying, I'm acknowledging where I am in a system. I'm acknowledging the money I can raise. I'm acknowledging how I can call other people in and I'm naming who I am in that system. And I think that's a very important part of our participation in that system that we shouldn't be afraid to say.

I am a, you I identify as this, this, this, this, and some things, you know, mean I'm an insider and some things mean I'm an outsider. And, and what do I do with all that truth? And it's like, there's so much opportunity everywhere. So, so yeah, I think the book does well because it's, it's, it's that positive, generous, inviting, and giving people credit for moving along wherever they're at. There's no judgment. There's no criticism. You're not moving fast enough. You're not doing enough.

You're never going to be good at this. You know, this is overwhelming and bad and heavy. There is a lot of that, but we can't feel good about our progress. I don't think we can get to the harder work that we need to do. So I'm somewhere in that kind of, you know, preparation part for leaders so that they can then develop the resilience to do half of the harder conversations and do the deeper introspection. And I think that's why it's a gateway book to a lot of harder work.

Jennifer Brown (23:17.154)
that we need to do as a society. I think it's kind of a, it might've been a niche that I really resonate with because that's been me in my journey too, so.

Skot Waldron (23:28.09)
What would you say to those individuals who have been hit over the head for the past several years with the D and I drum over and over and over again that are getting tired. They're like the capitalists out there. They're like, listen, these initiatives, they're not, they're not making us profitable this quarter. We have to figure out the quarter right now, those sales numbers right now.

Jennifer Brown (23:37.966)
you

Skot Waldron (23:56.826)
What would you say to them as far as why they should care and why they should focus on something like this right now?

Jennifer Brown (24:07.532)
Yeah, well, they may feel like they're winning the battle, but they may be losing the war. So the battle of the quarterly results, the way that you accomplish things matters. The environment you create in which you reach those goals could burn people out. It could trample people. could enable, sort of could create a culture where it's toxic.

or a few sort of demographics constantly kind of rise to the top are promoted. Certain leadership styles are rewarded that are not inclusive because it's all about driving quote unquote results. So to me, the measure of a great leader is somebody who accomplishes those things and is somebody that you want to work for and with and alongside and creates an environment where you want to stay and do your best and extra work.

And we all know what it feels like to be hit over the head. And it's classic carrot and stick. I mean, these are like stick leaders. Like, I'm going to beat this system until I can get what I need out of it and please some sort of metric and one group of stakeholders. But there is a reason we move to stakeholder capitalism from shareholder capitalism. And that evolution to me speaks to all the influencing that we can do to get things done.

and get there together and get there in a way that builds relationships, that enables the best and most creative contributions from everyone. Because by the way, no innovation is going to be complete without the participation and the ideas of a diverse group of people. And that means diverse in what I can see or perceive about somebody and all the invisible diversities that we know exist under the waterline of the iceberg.

If you don't acknowledge what's going on and you're not able to balance the short -term results drive with the long -term culture building, you may be able to accomplish something in the short term, but you will not be a beloved leader. You will not be a resonant leader. You will not be able to attract the best talent and keep the best talent. You'll burn through people as some kind of expendable resource. And you won't, I don't think you'll thrive in the future because if anything, this is going to get more chaotic and more difficult.

Jennifer Brown (26:32.186)
to lead. So, I mean, I see short -term, you know, goal accomplishment as kind of, okay, yeah, what else are you going to do? Like, how else are you going to, you know, build a stronger, more resilient business? You know, you can do that, but there's a cost. There's a cost if you march ahead like a steamroller. There's a cost. You may not care about the cost and you may be able to just move on, but ultimately the brand suffers.

The relationship with customers suffers, the innovation suffers. If you have group think, if you're not able to retain all kinds of talent because they feel truly welcomed and therefore invited to do their best work and safe enough to do their best work, you will end up with group think because people will fall out of your organization quickly. And you will end up with people that just, you know, probably look like you and all they care about is, and they have the same, and they have the same blind spots too. know, group think, we, there's a lot of research on it, that diversity of thought and identity contributes.

to deeper solutions and more lasting solutions and more customer resonance. So there's tons out there on this. So if you want to be a short -term leader, you can push through it, but know that there's a cost to it and that's a choice.

Skot Waldron (27:45.69)
And I think that that's, that's the idea here, right? Is that this is just another outward expression of your leadership style and the culture you're trying to build. We build short -term cultures here. We look at the short -term, we do things for the immediate, like, right? Like that's what we're that, but a true leader is that ability to look out and say,

Jennifer Brown (28:00.366)
Sounds great.

Skot Waldron (28:12.346)
The war is what we're trying to win here. And we are trying to all get there together and build a brand that people want to be a part of and want to follow. And, that's kind of the message that I've heard from you and I value that. I appreciate that. You're doing a lot of speaking out in the circuit right now, still on this topic, and still trying to drive home this message of why it's relevant. How do people get in touch with you? Where do people find you? If they want you to come speak to their organization, their

Jennifer Brown (28:21.122)
Like a lasting brand, yeah.

Skot Waldron (28:42.02)
group, their conference, whatever you're doing right now, how do they find you?

Jennifer Brown (28:44.522)
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I'm delighted to be speaking and spreading the word. I am reachable on jenniferbrownspeaks .com. And we're very active on LinkedIn. So please get on there. Follow us. Get on my newsletter. do community calls monthly where we bring on really interesting, I think, thought leaders, people that I need to learn from, topics that I'm still learning. I mean, I'm on my own learning continuum also.

I tell people to just join us and know that this is not a judgment zone about where they're at. Like I said earlier, I would love to have learners at all levels and wherever. I think it's just important to know where we are. So I'm on Instagram at JenniferRoundSpeaks also, and I have four books actually. So we've been talking a lot about the second edition of How to be an Inclusive Leader, but

I co -wrote a book with Rohit Bhargava called Beyond Diversity in 2021. I was very busy those couple of years. And then I have a book called Inclusion from 2017 that's still popular amongst people that they still buy it as a primer for all things DEI. So connect with us. And if you've got an event coming up that is either a D &I and changing of the workforce talk.

for leaders where we talk a lot about what you and I talked about today, Scott, but also you're investing in your up and coming talent. You're investing in your affinity networks and your leaders who are today underrepresented in leadership, but you hope to change that. I love those kinds of inspirational stages where I definitely can build up and support and encourage people to use their voice to change the companies that they're in for the better.

And also where I can speak directly to leaders about the responsibility and accountability that they have and the opportunity that they have to evolve. So anything in those veins, I love and I would love to be invited.

Skot Waldron (30:43.13)
Very cool. I love it, Jennifer. Thank you for hanging out with me. Thanks for talking about this. it, it needs to, it doesn't need to go away. Like we need to keep it going people, like keep it going. thanks and good luck to the book and, and the, the speaking stuff. I know you've done a lot of good out there in the past few decades, so keep it rolling.

Jennifer Brown (30:45.582)
Thanks, Scott.

Jennifer Brown (30:53.27)
Yes, we do. Absolutely.

Thank you.

Jennifer Brown (31:03.96)
Thanks, Scott.