Unlocking The Flow Equation with Gaëlle Devins

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* LinkedIn
* Book: Flow Leadership: Unleash the Power of People, Purpose, and Performance

Timestamps
00:00 Cold Intro & Start
06:15 Cowbells & Yodeling: The Swiss Surprise Nobody Saw Coming
07:08 “Not Just Swiss”: Why Flow Starts with a Big Heart
08:54 Bedridden with Twins… and Suddenly Writing a Book
12:59 Flow Defined: Seen, Valued, and At Your Best
17:36 Leaders Don’t Know Flow (and That’s the Problem)
21:05 Goodbye Command-and-Control, Hello Emotional Connection
25:55 The First Barrier to Flow? You
33:44 People & Purpose: The Two P’s Leaders Keep Ignoring
43:41 The Poison of Disrespect: How Toxic Workplaces Begin
44:52 A Magic Wand: Why Every Book Sale Goes to Kids Fighting Cancer

Gaëlle Devins (00:02.764)
We already kind of know the answer and sometimes we ask questions, but we don’t really want to know the right answer because we’re afraid of what is going to be triggered by the right feedback, right?

So, everyone wants to feel seen in the workplace and valued and that goes beyond the perks that you can give them. Recognition has nothing to do with most of the time.

Skot Waldron (00:24.00)
What is some kind of workplace behavior that you would get rid of immediately if you could?

Gaëlle Devins (00:30.00)
I would like

Skot Waldron (00:35.128)
When I’m not hosting Unlocked, I’m speaking at events all over the world. I’m helping leaders and I’m helping teams communicate better. I’m helping them build trust faster and actually enjoy working together. I’ve spoken for companies like The Home Depot. I’ve spoken at national architectural firms. I’ve spoken for pharmaceutical company offsites. I’ve spoken at associations, you name it.

With 99% of attendees of all those events, over 1800 people have reviewed me at this point. 99% of them saying they got some value. That’s pretty awesome. Even the caterers have thanked me. And if they are thanking me and they’ve heard a lot of talks and they’re busy doing their jobs, that’s saying something. If you’re an event planner looking for a speaker who’s really easy to work with, trust me, I want to be the last thing you’re worried about on event day. I’m going to take care of you. And who actually delivers value for your audience that they are going to use on Monday morning when they return to the office, then let’s talk.

You may have heard the term flow before and getting into flow and the mindset of flow and how we can get into that. And we, you talk about with athletes, you talk about with, with the way we work, you talk about it with, you know, all types of environments in which we’re in. But when you hit that flow state, you maybe aren’t aware that you’re in it, but sometimes you are. And sometimes you’re like, I’m in this thing.

My next guest, Gaëlle Devins, is taking that to the team level. So yes, the flow state idea, we talk about that, what it is, where it comes from, just a bit, but then we talk about this whole concept of flow at work. And that is where she comes from. It’s a concept she created.

And with more than 23 years of spanning the Americas, EMEA, and APAC regions, she’s worked in all of those and live in all of those. She’s been fortunate enough to work in a variety of industries, including Luxury, Advertising, and FMCG. This breadth of experience has given her a really unique perspective on different cultures and different environments and the way they drive business: its people and the connections that we foster. As the founder of FlowFusion Sarl, she’s developed unique approaches to foster thriving workplaces for both individuals and organizations. Well, the organizations are made of the individuals. If we can help the individuals be happy, we help the organizations be happy. And she even wrote a book, and we’ll talk about that. It’s called FLOW@WORK. And her approach centered on Flow Leadership and the Power of the 3Ps: People, Purpose and Performance.

And we’re going to talk about those. She’s got some really great nuggets of inspiration and information for you. My goal is that you hear them and that leads to transformation. So here we go.

Skot Waldron (03:46.476)
Okay, I have a surprise for you, Gaëlle. Are you ready? So, I showed you this, but I didn’t show you this.

Huh? Look, Swiss flag, I got my cowbell. I am just like…

Gaëlle Devins (04:00.00)
Can you do the famous Swiss song?

Skot Waldron (04:04.00)
Wait. What.

Gaëlle Devins (04:05.00)
The Yodeling.

Skot Waldron (04:07.00)
Wait. What was it?

Gaëlle Devins (04:08.00)
Yodeling. You know, like what’s happening in the mountains. No?

Skot Waldron (04:11.852)
No, can you yodel? Can you yodel?

Gaëlle Devins (04:14.00)
No. No.

Skot Waldron (04:15.852)
You can’t yodel? I thought all Swiss people could yodel. I’m just kidding. They can’t yodel. No, but I never did learn how to yodel. But I do miss the cowbells. I do miss the cowbells. I get the only time I get to hear them now is when I’m at cycling races and I get to bring cowbells that my cycling races.

Gaëlle Devins (04:38.00)
I see, to cheer you and to cheer people up.

Skot Waldron (04:40.00)
That’s it. That’s it. So fantastic. I’m so glad that you’re on the show. I have a special love in my heart for Switzerland. And then when we were introduced, I was like, please, I can’t wait to have you on my show, not just cause you’re Swiss Gaëlle, but because you have a really cool message to share that I think. And you have a big heart, I think is part of this thing too. Like you’re, don’t just have a good message, but you have like a good heart. And I think that that makes a good combo.

Gaëlle Devins (05:07.00)
Thank you. Likewise, otherwise you would not do what you do, right?

Skot Waldron (05:13.00)
Yeah, I think maybe I would do what I would do initially, but I don’t think I would stay doing what I did.

Gaëlle Devins (05:20.13)
Exactly. Maintaining over time, giving a lot to others.

Skot Waldron (05:27.00)
It’s the endurance, right? And you know, and you know that as well doing what you do. Can you give me a little bit of this idea? So, you’re over at Breitling now doing your thing and working what you’ve been doing and helping the culture and the people. But I really want to understand this idea of flow. And this is really important, I think for a lot of people to understand, and you have a little bit of a personal, I guess, story with this.

Before, you know, FLOW@WORK became actual framework. It was part of your own survival. Maybe if we could say that. Can you tell us a little bit about when flow became more personal and it wasn’t really optional. It was like an essential part of your life.

Gaëlle Devins (06:26.00)
Yeah. I think it was always part of my life. It’s just that I didn’t know how to articulate it or what it was really. And FLOW@WORK is the framework that came later after many years in the corporate world. So how it started is more of a personal journey where I was trying to grow as an individual and as a leader in the workplace. And I started to put my thoughts on paper in a journal.

And then, you know, down the line, when I got pregnant with my twins, I got bedridden. I had a lot of time in front of me, and I decided to actually start writing a book about it. And then that’s how the FLOW@WORK framework came to life. Because as I was writing it, I was given a promotion as well, where I had, you know, the opportunity to test everything on different teams in different departments.

And that’s how I came up with the concept of FLOW@WORK. Once I discovered the concept of flow altogether. So, and that led me to the, to do framework because without the framework, the book would have been just more of a corporate and spiritual journey, a quest, if you want in some sorts. But then I was able to really anchor it into a framework that makes sense for the corporate world.

Skot Waldron (07:50.00)
So, would you suggest that in order to get a book done, we need to go to be bedridden?

Gaëlle Devins (07:56.00)
Well first you need to get pregnant with twins and get bedridden, so you have time you see.

Skot Waldron (08:01.00)
That’s the secret to writing a book.

Gaëlle Devins (08:05.00)
I would never have been able to write a book. No, I mean, you can write a book in any source of ways. I wrote a book coming from life experiences and work experiences. So it was, I didn’t want to be, I didn’t want a book to be theoretical, even though there is one part in it that is theoretical because it’s based on some research, academic research that we had to run to validate the concept.

But I wanted it to be pragmatic. I wanted the people to be able to read it and take little bits and pieces and be able to apply it on their own without having to question themselves on how they can realize that or implement it into the workplace. There are many books out there that are amazing with beautiful concepts and that leave us with huge inspiration at the end. But then the workplace is such that sometimes it’s very difficult to implement. And I have at the same time, no competencies to be competing with those books because that’s not my background. I’m not a researcher. I’m not a professor and so on. What I have is only 25 years of experience in the workplace, having lived in many continents and worked across many different industries and led teams all over. So, the only thing I could really take as a learning is all the insight that I gathered over the years.

So, the book is basically consolidation of everything that I have witnessed over the years in different industries and how to lead team across different nationalities, cultural backgrounds and differences. And it’s just toolkit, you know, it’s a guide. It has nothing fancy about it.

Skot Waldron (09:50.00)
That’s the thing is you’ve lived in so many, like, you have a unique experience in your work life. You’ve worked with luxury brands. You’ve worked in global markets and multi-regional teams. And you’ve, you’ve dealt with different people in different cultures. I’m interested. I always am interested about the concept, different concepts and how they appeal to different cultures and how they translate to different cultures.

So how, how is the concept of flow? First of all, you know what, before we even go there, can you define what the flow means to you?

Gaëlle Devins (10:29.632)
Yeah. I mean, FLOW@WORK is that zone where people feel they are seen, you know, they are at their best, they feel at their best and they produce their best work. So, it’s when you reach a natural alignment in between the level of skills and the level of challenges. So, you don’t bore people out or you don’t burn them out. And you have the three P’s that are in alignment. The three P’s are the People, Purpose and Performance.

And so that’s, that’s for me, the notion of flow, if you FLOW@WORK, but if you, if you consider the notion of flow, flow is when someone is in the zone, you know, you forget, you don’t have any sense of time awareness or location awareness because you are so immersed into the task that you are doing that you forget everything else around you. That’s what, that’s the zone that you enter when you’re an athlete, when you’re a musician and artist and, the notion of time disappears because you are so immersed into what you are doing.

So that’s flow. And when you’re in flow, you’re unlocking your full potential because you are so concentrated on the task that you are doing that you don’t have time in your brain to process that little voice that is always, you know, they’re telling us, am I doing the right thing? Not doing the right thing? Or, you know, you don’t have it because you are so into the moment. So, you are unlocking that for your full potential, right? And so that’s the notion of flow. And I realized that teams when they are working in harmony when the three Ps are aligned. I created different equations on the three Ps of People, Purpose and Performance. Then you have the opportunity to bring your teams into FLOW@WORK. And that’s peak potential for not only the individual within the team, the team and the company themselves, because you can work on the FLOW@WORK level on the individual level, on the team level and on the organizational level.

Skot Waldron (12:24.00)
That’s cool. And so, it scales this idea is that it scales throughout the organization. Does it scale? And this goes back to my original question across cultures. And how does, how does the idea of flow? Is it the same no matter what culture you’re part of? How does it shift depending on cultural norms or market pressures or other things like that?

Gaëlle Devins (12:48.558)
Yeah, it’s interesting question because for me, you know, in one way, leadership needs to adjust to the culture environment that you’re in. You cannot, you have to take into consideration the nuances of where you are based and the cultures and the mentality and the way of working and doing things, right, in leadership. But when you consider the notion of flow, I think flow or FLOW@WORK is universal as a concept because it starts with having the people as the center of everything and people, regardless of where we are based, what language we speak and so on, we all process emotions in the same way, more or less, you know. And so we may have different reactions to emotions, but we’re all human beings with emotions. And so FLOW@WORK really considers the people first.

Therefore, maybe how you run a workshop or how you talk about flow to that team may differ a little bit depending on where you are based, you know, because maybe you have to do some more explanation. Maybe you can go straight to the point and so on, but the outcome or what you try to achieve with flow remains the same. So, I would say it’s universal. Everyone wants to feel seen in the workplace and valued and that goes beyond the perks that you can give them. Recognition has nothing to do with most of the time, monetary recognition, but we forget that, right?

People simply what they want is to feel seen, valued, that their work matters. They want to have a sense of contribution towards the bigger picture. And that is universal, regardless of where you’re based.

Skot Waldron (14:28.00)
Exactly. I agree. And as you were talking about it, it’s kind like, believe the same state of flow exists no matter where you are, how you communicate it, how you lead it, how you make time for it. I don’t know, that may depend on cultural norms and the culture that you create inside your organization, which I think is really important to understand. And that leads me into thinking about with all the research that you’ve done and some of the global work that you’ve done.

What do leaders consistently misunderstand about flow?

Gaëlle Devins (15:04.00)
First, I don’t know if many leaders know about flow actually. Sometimes that’s the first question, is to show people what flow is because it’s not a concept that is known by everyone. And once they understand, it’s not easy to understand that you can apply it to the workplace because it’s not something that we’re used to see. We’re used to talk about team wellbeing and performances and life balance, know, but flow in the workplace is not something maybe in the US it is more known, but at least in Switzerland where I’m based, it’s not something that is integrated within the workplace. So, the leaders first, you need to educate them. Once you educate them of what flow is, the framework is quite particular. So, you need to explain to them how to reach that flow at work state for the team through the methodology and the framework. And then it doesn’t speak to everyone, you know, it’s quite, even though it’s proven in the workplace because of the research that was done, it’s quite something that is innovative or avant-garde and may scare a lot of people off because it’s not a traditional way of leading a team. You know, it takes a lot on you as a leader. You have to do a little bit of self-journey, self-assessment, you know, to understand what type of leader you are, to understand that the image that you are has a reflection on your team directly. You have to build that foundation with the people first. So, it takes a lot. It’s not just a plug and play. You cannot try to apply FLOW@WORK if you are not living it authentically yourself, you know, first.

And so, I would say it all starts with a journey of self-awareness and understanding where you’re at in your life and what is it that you want to achieve. And then once you have work on yourself, you can work on your team, right? But otherwise, how can you understand the emotions if your team, that your team is having or experiencing, if you are not understanding your own emotions, because you are not connected to what you feel, because sometimes we don’t take the time to ask yourself how we feel.

How can you be aware of the needs of your teams or the obstacles that they are having if you’re not asking yourself the same questions first, you know? So, it all starts by a journey of self-discovery and self-awareness, I would say. And that sometimes a leader is not willing to have that discussion on that first step. Although I think the world is changing and people are more and more wanting to be a better version of themselves. So, but it all starts within.

Skot Waldron (17:56.00)
Do you think the world is changing because, and I don’t know how you talk about it in Europe, but the industrial age of, and the industrial way of thinking and working is going away with the retirement of baby boomers and that older generation that is going away. Do you feel like the mentality of I don’t want to work on myself. I just want to lead through command and control or hierarchy, positional power, that is, do you think that’s the reason or what’s your thoughts?

Gaëlle Devins (18:34.00)
Yeah, it’s an interesting one because at the same time, when first there is a shift happening where I think it’s transitioning from a top-down kind of more patriarchal kind of, you know, structure to something that is a bit more transversal, inclusive, emotionally connected and so on. So, I think there is a shift because yes, the generations are shifting as well. And therefore, the needs and how they want to work in the workplace is no longer the same.

Yet at the same time, I think we are, you the new generations are coming up. They have not faced a big recession. They have not faced real difficulties. So, they can be somehow more choosy on the workplace and the environment that they want to be in. You know, they prefer to choose a place where they can feel that they have a sense of fulfillment and purpose, for example. But at the same time, we can do it like that now, right? Comes a point where everything collapses. You don’t really have the benefit to ask yourself those type of questions. Are the values aligned with my values? Is the environment the one I wanted to have? Now we have the luxury of being a bit more choosy to be able to shift from one company to the other until we feel that there is a fit and there is an alignment and there is a sense of fulfillment.

I think to answer your question, yes, there is a shift. The workplace has to evolve anyway, and it’s already transitioning, you know, because the way we want to work as a human being is shifting. But how long for how long? I don’t know, because right now we’re in a kind of luxury space, you know, to be able to even ask ourselves those questions. But because we’re asking ourselves those questions, by definition, we’re starting to change the workplace for the time being. How long it will last, I don’t know. But the new generations clearly do not want to work in the same way that we have been working for the last decades.

Skot Waldron (20:37.00)
Exactly. And I’ve seen that a lot too. And I just, don’t know if it’s shifting more because it’s just a natural shift that’s happening with the generations like I proposed earlier, or if it’s just because it’s being talked about so much more now, like everybody seems to be talking about, you know, whether it’s servant leadership or whatever you want to call it. It’s the idea of more empathy, of understanding of, you know, there’s a, Steve Farber wrote a book called Love is Just Damn Good Business, and he wrote that book and he’s been on my show and we use the word love and we talk about relationships and we talk, you know, now when before it was just never talked about that way.

Gaëlle Devins (21:21.00)
No, but we have to as well look at where it all comes from and the evolution before we had to manufacture work. You know, we had to produce work. That’s how everything was born. So that left the evolution towards a type of leadership that was not looking at the human being for what it was, but more for what he could produce. Right?

And so now we’re looking at the human being for what it can produce and how it can produce it and who is behind, you know. So, there is an evolution. Yeah, right. I don’t know if it’s generationally, if it’s led by generations or if it’s led by the shift of simply how the world is evolving. But at the end, what we have to do in the corporate place is to adjust to that new change because if we don’t, first we cannot hire the right people right, because they are not interested to work in a specific old-fashioned way.

And second, assuming you can hire them and attract them, the difficulty is if you don’t change the way you operate or the system that we have established, they don’t stay. So, you have retention issues. So, at the end of the day, regardless of what caused the transition that is actually occurring, what matters is that the companies that are adjusting the fastest are the ones that are going to have the more, you know, receiving or being able to keep the talent on board.

Skot Waldron (22:58.326)
Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. Going back to flow, what keeps people from getting into the flow state? Because I think that it’s a really important place to get into. And I have my own views on some of this as well. But what in your research or in your discovery, what are you finding is hard for people?

Gaëlle Devins (23:22.00)
Yeah. I mean, often we are the first buyer to reaching flow as an individual to ourselves, right? We have, we come from a place of lack and limitations and fear as opposed to a place where we actually the actor of our own destiny and that we can make the changes that are required for us to have true happiness in the workplace or, you know, be able to reach something that we desire.

So first, that step is to be more aligned to who we are and what we want. But besides that, you know, if you cannot reach flow, if you don’t have a certain list of parameters, so if you don’t have a clear objectives, if you don’t have a clear mission, if you don’t feel like you having a purpose within the workspace, you know, you need to have a series of, of conditions around it that you can put in place in order to reach flow. But it all starts with the foundation of people, then having a sense of purpose and alignment to your performance. And performance is nothing else than the right level of skills to the right level of challenge. And then if you have all of that, you enter that zone of natural excellence where you can enter that zone of FLOW@WORK. And when you are in FLOW@WORK, you are at your best basically.

So, you are not fearful of any changes or calling out the shots because you know what needs to be done. Or you can see the long-term picture. You are not victim of any situation. You are the actor of any change within your company. And often people have the feeling that they are at the mercy of the company or the system, but we all have the power to change the system. That’s what we forget, right? We always kind of view ourselves as fighting the system, but behind the system, there are human beings, and they have the power to change things.

So, it all starts with one person planting the seeds of change, and then it creates a ripple effect. So, to answer your question on what can prevent you from reaching flow, it’s of course the environment where you are based, but it’s most of the time yourself as an individual.

Skot Waldron (25:45.00)
Yeah, a lot of it has to do with mindset. And I think the pressures we put on ourselves. Do you… So oftentimes people will talk about a flow state of… And correct me if I’m wrong. And I might be right, and I might be wrong, but I want you to clarify for me that what you believe flow state actually is or what it looks like. And I know you kind of defined it earlier, but is it just like when I’m in the zone maybe I’ve got my headphones on and I’m working and I’m grinding it out and I’m just feeling really good. I’m maybe, you know, like I lose track of time. Like you said earlier, I don’t realize what’s going on around me. And then I realized it’s been, you know, two hours and maybe it’s when I was writing my book or when I was working on a project that I was really passionate about or something like that. Right. So, are you talking about, is that what you would consider flow?

Or is there another level to that that I’m not quite hitting?

Gaëlle Devins (26:46.00)
No, no, this one is the level of flow. And actually, I didn’t come up with that concept. It’s Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi who came up with it. And he has a whole theory, and you have a lot of Steven Kotler and people that do a lot of research on flow. So that’s standard, what you’re explaining, it’s a standard definition of flow and that has nothing to do with it.

The concept of flow leadership, however, for me is very different because it’s how I, as a leader, you can lead your team into FLOW@WORK. And that’s why I specify that is FLOW@WORK because flow is the result of being in the zone, but FLOW@WORK manifest differently is when for the company, you put the teams in the zone of top performance, but as well without compromising the people and their sense of purpose, because in the workplace often you look at performances through the eyes of KPIs.

KPIs are number driven, they are commercially driven, but they serve the system. And FLOW@WORK tries to serve the people whilst supporting the system with the right performances without crunching the people basically, right? So, it’s a take on how you can improve performances through the work that you put in the team to make them reach FLOW@WORK that you better perform as a company overall. In essence, it’s what you put in, you get out.

So that’s the notion of FLOW@WORK, which is slightly different than the flow concept that has been established. It starts with that, right. It’s the notion, it’s the base of it all, but how it manifests is different in the workplace.

Skot Waldron (28:27.00)
Can we have, and I’m gonna guess no, but if we talk about People, Purpose and Performance, why are those three, you see you have to have those three at, in a really healthy spot in order to achieve team flow or is there some kind of breakdown? Like, well the purpose is really the most important or I don’t know, like is there some hierarchy you give those?

Gaëlle Devins (28:53.00)
Now there is, we did academic research in the part three of the book. You can see all the numbers and work that was done. Basically, people is the main driver. Purpose is the supporting function of the people, and the performance is the basis. And you can have different P level depending on the mission of the company. If you know, because when you can take an assessment. So, I design an assessment that you can take individually to understand where you’re at with the three Ps and the notion of wellbeing versus stress level. And therefore, you can see your flow index, right? So, you can take that as an individual. And then I have an assessment for the teams where we can see which of the P is in misalignment versus the others. And so based on that, we can see if a company is too much focused on the first P of the people and they are not strong enough on the purpose and on the performance front with regards to the benchmark that we have done. It’s a live benchmark every time there are people taking the assessment, then we recalibrate the three P notion that generates the flow at work. Right. So, you can see how you are doing versus others where you’re at if your company needs to readjust what key and then from there you can craft an action plan. When you have companies that are super commercially driven, then they focus maybe too much on the performance and they forget the first few of the people. And therefore, at one point everything collapses because people cannot sustain it. Right.

Sometimes when you are having charity company-based nonprofits, they are so anchored on the first P that they are forgetting that at the end of the day, they need performances as well in order to still generate what their mission is, right? Because their purpose is leading them. So, depending on the assessment and depending on the 3P, you can recalibrate where you need to go as a company based on the findings.

Skot Waldron (31:06.00)
Which one do people companies have the hardest time with, do you think?

Gaëlle Devins (31:12.396)
I mean, often performance is not the issue, right? People are very much skewed towards the performance. It’s the two of the first, it’s the first people and then the purpose. Purpose is a scary word for the workplace. It’s something that is quite abstract. People don’t know what to make of it, but purpose is really that mission, that vision, that sense of you are contributing towards the mission of the company and you are seeing how your work matters and makes a difference, right?

And people start with daring to care for our people. And often we think we do it with the perks that we’re offering or, you know, the few discussions that we’re having, but it goes beyond that. It’s day-to-day exercise. So, I would say the first two P’s are often neglected. And the third P is often misunderstood because performance is, well, putting people under pressure to perform better, but we’re not really at what really looking at what prevents them from unlocking that performance. And that’s why in the book; performance is spoken about as this alignment in between the skills and the level of challenge. Because if you are not in alignment and therefore not in your natural zone of excellence, then that means you have obstacles or issues that you need to fix. And by asking the right questions, then you know how to recalibrate and fix them.

Skot Waldron (32:37.00)
I was listening to a, just talking about, I was listening to a podcast this week where they were talking about this, this idea of find your passion of passionate work and understanding the positives to that, but also some of the negatives that may come down to that as well of finding your passion. And it was interesting when the researchers were on talking about this, they were saying this, this thought concept didn’t really even come into the workplace until the early 2000s. This whole find your passion, follow your passion and you’ll never work a day in your life. And this whole idea wasn’t even around because we came from, like you said so brilliantly, it used to be what can a person produce? Like what can they make? Like actually physically, and then we started work with our heads that our brains were producing projects and working around ideas and that’s what we were producing.

And so, then that became more of a passion thing. And so, I think it’s coming more into the workplace, right? Where I’ll do more purpose workshops. When I work with companies and they’re on their vision, mission and values, I often say, do you also have a purpose statement? And they say, no. And I say, well, that’s probably one of the biggest things that I would work on with you, is that purpose statement.

So why do you think that’s so important, but yet so neglected?

Gaëlle Devins (34:14.00)
Because when you are working full speed in a company to create your mission statement, your vision, your purpose and so on, takes you out of your day-to-day job. It requires time and energy that you may not have, you know, because you have your deliverables, your deadlines, your commercial targets you need to hit.

And so, I think it’s overlooked not because there is no interest. Maybe that’s partially the reason. I don’t know. But I think it’s overlooked because it’s not considered a priority for most companies today. But the first job that I do when I take over a team or department is to create that framework of having a vision, a mission and a purpose, right? Because then people can relate to it. They understand the direction. And when you have a vision or an old star, then you know, you have a sense of direction, you know what to work towards.

So, I think it’s, and the second reason, besides the fact that maybe it’s not known or not used, or it takes away time from your day to day, I think people simply don’t know maybe how to craft it or how to work with it or the benefits of it, you know. And so, it’s just not done. It’s done when you bring in external coaches or external people to help with the team development. But internally, it’s often not done as a priority.

It’s the same for values. You put your values on people, on paper as a company. Does it mean that your values are values that people are experiencing and living day to day? Behavioral values are most of the time very different than your values. If you can’t articulate or activate your values, are they really the right values for the company? You know what I mean? All that work that needs to be done takes time away from your day to day and often it will be done if someone external makes you pause and makes you reflect on that and then everyone gathers around this exercise and everyone is happy doing it but as you are leading a team often it’s not a priority.

Skot Waldron (36:36.00)
Well said. I think the values thing is, you know, companies, they sometimes create them to check the box and without understanding what they really mean. And sometimes the leadership comes up with values as kind of like, this is the way we want everybody to see us, or we want everybody to act. It’s kind of like…

Gaëlle Devins (37:01.00)
Yeah. Is it the same they want to project.

Skot Waldron (37:03.52)
Exactly. Instead of understanding who we are and what we embody and that essence of using it as a hiring tool of do you believe what I believe? Do you understand what I understand about how we do work? And that’s what I think companies miss oftentimes. Do you see that?

Gaëlle Devins (37:23.00)
I agree, 100%. And people cannot attach or cannot relate themselves to values that they cannot live and experience. So that’s why to translate them into behavioral values, how do they manifest? How do they take place? You know, like a kind of value manifesto or, you know, a leadership value-based manifesto that you really have to embody as a C-suite and so on is essential because how you behave at the top cascades down to the rest of the company, you know, and every layer of the company needs to see how does that translate into their day to day and into their functions.

Skot Waldron (38:03.00)
Agree.

All right, you ready? I’m going to do a, we’re going to wrap this thing up a little bit with a kind of a lightning. I know you’re so sad. It’s already over, Gaëlle. I know and I get it.

Gaëlle Devins (38:18.00)
We’ll be keeping in touch.

Skot Waldron (38:22.00)
You get to go to bed now. Just think about it. You get to go to sleep.

Gaëlle Devins (38:26.474)
I have a deal with honey because my voice is really killing me.

Skot Waldron (38:30.00)
Oh, no. Oh, no. Well, you’ve done great. I haven’t been able to tell at all. I don’t know. I’ve just been dumbfounded by your American. I mean, not your American, your English words, you’ve been speaking.

Gaëlle Devins (38:44.00)
English Swiss.

Skot Waldron (38:47.00)
Yeah, exactly. Okay, one word. What’s one word you’d use to define team flow? Because that’s two words.

Gaëlle Devins (39:02.656)
One word to define team flow. That’s a tough one. Happiness.

Skot Waldron (39:14.00)
Mmm good. Okay, most underrated leadership trait.

Gaëlle Devins (39:21.00)
Self-awareness.

Skot Waldron (39:25.00)
What is, okay, this is gonna get a little, we’re gonna turn team flow back onto you or just the idea of flow. What is the practice or the thing you turn to when you notice that your team is out of flow?

Gaëlle Devins (39:41.506)
Asking questions.

Skot Waldron (39:43.00)
Asking questions?

Gaëlle Devins (39:44.00)
Yeah.

Skot Waldron (39:46.00)
Okay. I this is lightning round, but you got to expand on that.

Gaëlle Devins (39:50.00)
I need to expand on one.

Skot Waldron (39:52.00)
You need to expand on why do you ask questions? What does that do?

Gaëlle Devins (39:58.00)
Because often I would rephrase it, actually, I would say, try to ask the right questions. Often, we ask questions and we already kind of know the answer. And sometimes we ask questions, but we don’t really want to know the right answer because we’re afraid of what is going to be triggered by the right feedback. Right.

So, if you ask the right questions, then you understand the situations and the needs of your teams and the people, and then you can act as a leader on it, but you need to be uncomfortable. It puts you, you need to learn to be mastering the art of being uncomfortable because if you trigger the right and honest and authentic conversation, it’s not going to be comfortable. Everything you’re going to hear, but feedback is gold. So, in asking the right questions and you have the understanding of how you can act and change the reality of your team’s artwork.

Gaëlle Devins (40:57.00)
Okay, good, thank you. All right, here you go. What is some kind of workplace behavior that you would get rid of immediately if you could? Magic wand, you have a magic wand.

Gaëlle Devins (41:08.00)
I would like the people to be seen for who they are and everyone to actually be seen. Not only the ones that are more vocal or loud for everyone to be noticed and feeling like they matter and value. So that’s one thing is recognition of everyone and their contribution.

And second is, I think maybe when you are disrespectful, so disrespect in the workplace. You know, you need to be respectful of the others, regardless of if you agree, disagree, if you’re on the same page or not, because that leads to toxic behavior at the end of the day, you know, like it’s the start of many other things.

Skot Waldron (41:53.55)
Yeah. That’s amazing. Love the thought process. I love where you’re going with it. And just to reemphasize how big your heart is, the corporate sales of the book are all going to support nonprofits or a charity of some kind. Yeah. And so, can you explain a little bit about what you’re doing there?

Gaëlle Devins (42:15.00)
Yes, so I wanted my book to be my magic wand. That’s why it’s nice in a transition to this question. I see the book as my magic wand. I always wanted to be of service to the world, to the community and make a difference in people’s lives. Don’t ask me why. Since I’m born, I wanted to be a healer. I don’t have that power. So, I decided to use my book to heal others.

So, the corporate sales, they go 100% of the profit goes to a charity called Cancer. It’s a foundation that supports children that have cancer through the research that they are doing when every traditional treatments are failing or supporting families when one of the parents has to stop working because they need to care for their children. Because there are no other treatments possible, right? So, when they’re in hospice. So yeah, so I decided to give everything to them. And that’s why I call my book The Magic Wand.

Skot Waldron (43:21.00)
Yes, it is. And it will do tons of magic for a lot of people out there. So, thank you for doing that. I think that’s, that’s really cool. Breitling is blessed to have you.
Gaëlle Devins (43:34.926)
I’m blessed to have them.

Skot Waldron (43:36.00)
Yes, I’m sure. That’s what makes it so beautiful is that when you have each other, you know, you have each other that you can share, that they enable you to do what you do, that you can impact the world and the company like you can. So, keep doing it.

Thank you so much for being on. And if people want to get the book anywhere, where do they go?

Gaëlle Devins (43:56.00)
They can go on Amazon and in the UK or in the US, it’s in different bookstores, but online is available everywhere. It was published by Wiley, so they have quite a wide distribution.

Skot Waldron (44:11.00)
Yes, they do. Okay. Very cool, Gaëlle. Thank you so much.

Gaëlle Devins (44:16.00)
Thank you. Here we go again.

Skot Waldron (44:17.00)
Well done. Oh my God. Have you ever had anybody do that to you on a podcast before?

Gaëlle Devins (44:23.65)
I love that. It’s the best introduction and conclusion.

Skot Waldron (44:27.00)
It’s so good. It’s so American. I don’t know if anybody would ever do that except an American. So, but I love it. And thank you for being on the show. Keep rocking it. And yeah, go get some sleep. Thanks.

Gaëlle Devins (44:42.00)
Thank you, Skot. Thank you so much.

Skot Waldron (44:46.00)
Flow is when we are just working at our best, when we are just, we’re not distracted by anything, we’re in the zone, we’re just crushing it. And FLOW@WORK is when we, and Flow Leadership is about creating environments where that is possible and using the three Ps of People, Purpose and Performance to get into that and not ignoring any of them because they are all important and they support each other in what they do.

People being at the center of it all. People is what we talk about on this show for a reason. How do we unlock the potential of our people? How do we unlock the potential of ourselves and do the things that we’re able to do so that we can achieve FLOW@WORK? So that we can be leaders that embody this idea of flow leadership and doing what we do.

Her perspectives on environment and how we use people and how people are the essential parts of our organizations and the way they shape different cultural norms and build our organizations is so important. I love her thought, not just because, you know, she’s Swiss. I’m a little biased. I get it. But having lived there for a couple of years, I loved the Swiss people, Gaëlle, after she actually was on her way home on the train when we actually connected the first time and she sat and talked to me for like an hour on the train. Like that’s amazing, especially on a Swiss train where everybody’s trying to be quiet anyway. She was willing to do that. So, I really appreciate her, her heart and the way that she’s willing to donate all of the proceeds of her book sales to the cancer research stuff. So please any corporations out there that can support that. Support her and support what she’s trying to do. Help her wave her magic wand and throw some love to some kids out there.

If you want to find out more information about me or check out the show notes where there’s going to be more information and links to the things referenced in this episode, visit skotwaldron.com. And lastly, I’m asking for a little bit of love, just a little bit. So please take a moment, follow, rate the show. The algorithm is like that; it helps me get the word out. I really appreciate it.

Thank you. And until next time, stay Unlocked.