Unlocking The "Ick" In Sales With Cindy McGovern

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Unlocked, where we talk about unlocking the potential of you, the people you work with, and the people you do live with. At the time of this recording, I'm offering all of you. Yes, my lovely listeners, a free 15 minute communication coaching call. You come with some kind of communication problem and I give you a solution.

My calendar link is in the show notes, so check that out. Have you ever had that feeling, that icky, icky feeling of being sold to? I have, and my guess is you have too.

Dr. Cindy McGovern is going to talk to us today about how to take the ick out of sales. That ick. Yeah, we all know what it tastes like. We know what it feels like. We don't like it.

And so the ID here, though, is that we are all selling all the time. And if we don't learn to embrace it, if we don't learn that it's really creating opportunities for ourselves and others to get something that they need or want even, then we're going to have a lot of problems. Dr. Cini McGovern is known worldwide as the first lady of sales. She has authored the best selling every job is a sales job, how to use the art of selling to win at work. And it's award -winning follow -up, sell yourself, how to create, live, and sell a powerful personal brand. We're going to talk about those two books at the end of the interview.

You're going to hear about the target markets for those. I think it's really smart how she structured those. She's the CEO of Orange Leaf Consulting, as well as an online learning portal, Orange Leaf Academy, where you can also get some online training there.

Her mission is to take the ick out of sales and connect her audiences with tools and ideas to engage their innate Dr. Cindy, hello. Hi. So cool to meet you, so cool to see you, so cool to be with you. This is going to be a really good conversation because I know that everybody feels the pain.

Well, not everybody. I think there's some people that like it, you know, but I'm going to say for some of those like myself who have a hard time with it, I think this interview is going to be very, very relevant. Well, I am excited to be here. It's so nice to know you. And thanks for having me. You got it. All right. Let's just let's just start off with the icky. All right.

I love. I take that word from you because you take the ick out of sales. I didn't know it was in sales, but apparently it is. It's like, I don't know.

Like I'm so concerned about being one of those sales that I hold back what what's why am I doing that because we've all been sold before sold by that guy or that gal that you're talking about and so our fear is that we're going to become that person our fear is that if I sell or if I try to sell that I'm going to be perceived that same way that ickiness and it's not true We sell every day, all day. I guarantee that you have made successful sales today already. It's just, we don't call it sales. We think sales is when you have to stop everything, push something on someone else.

You know, it's manipulative, it's cheesy, it's all these things. It's so not true. It's about helping other people. So if you reframe the idea of sales, kind of changes the whole game.

And I believe that sales is helping other people. I believe that sales is sometimes walking away when you don't have a way to help them. So that's how I help take the ick out of selling because I don't think there should be one to begin with.

Okay. I like this word of, I like this word influence. And I contrast that with the idea of manipulation. I do a keynote on influence, and one of the things I talk about is the difference between manipulation and influence. And as salespeople, I take it that we want to influence and build and empower rather than manipulate, which I think a lot of people interpret sales as manipulation. Can you talk about your difference there between the two? Absolutely. So I think influence is around informing.

It's around inviting. And I think manipulation is around pushing and forcing and shoehorning them into a solution that may or may not fit.

And so if I'm influencing you, I'm making sure you have all the information to inform you so that you can make a decision. And I'm inviting you to be a part of this in a partnership with us or buy our services or our products or whatever it happens to be versus saying, I don't really care if this is good for you or not, but you should buy it. And then I've taken away your choice. I've taken away your power. And that's when we feel like we've been sold is when our power has been taken.

Our choice has been taken. And that's not what I'm about. That's that nobody wants to be that. Even the guy or gal that sells that way, I don't believe really wants to be that. I think maybe they just haven't been taught another way.

I love like that idea of your power being taken away because I was reading something earlier too today about that idea of manipulation versus influence and she's talking about storytelling and manipulating through story or influencing through story.

And that idea of manipulation is the withhold her idea was talking about the holding of information in order to control a desired outcome from their standpoint.

And if that is what you're trying to do is manipulate the situation so that you get the thing you want and control the thing you want, that means the other person lacks that control.

Their power is taken away because I want to keep all the power in the sales conversation. Yeah. And that's when it feels likey is because when I feel like I have absolutely no choice, I'm And we call that you're a personal brand.

Yes. And that thing that follows you around, because in the moment you're so desperate for that sale that you're willing to jeopardize that image that you have.

But then long term, you're like, oh, yeah, you can't get away from that. I can't get away from that, that, you know, that thing. That's, that's scary people thought about it it's true i i invite people to think about this like at the mall we all have that store or that kiosk that you walk by and they're basically stalking you from 20 paces and you're like wanting to pick up your cell phone pretend like you're on a call or something like anything to not make eye contact to not have an excuse that's the itk part and what's happened is you have just felt like all your control was taken all of your choice was taken they're literally chasing you and then you're like giving the wide birth to get away and what's interesting is you're literally going to avoid it from there on out you literally like go upstairs at the mall to not have to walk past that anymore think about that that's your brand i'm going to go out of my way to avoid you now that's what you sold that's really scary And the thing is, is as you talk about it, all the listeners, including myself, are like, yeah, it's, yeah. Like, we all get it because we've all felt it, you know? Totally. It's that teenager that's using the splat ball across the, like, against the wall and, you know, like coming over asking if you want to spray some cologne on or whatever it is, you know, it's that. So I think we feel it. And that's what we don't want is that.

And I think that that's, I don't know. Is that the reason why we don't want to become that salesperson? Because that is the more, that is more the norm than it is the exception.

Like, is that the problem out there with sales? Like, what is it? You know what's funny, though, Scott? I don't know that it's the norm. And here's why I don't think it's the norm because we have successful sales all day long.

Like we're a consumer industry of humans, right? Like literally we are a consumption nation and a global economy, right? So there are very successful sales happening all day, every day. I think the problem is we go to the lowest common denominator when we're looking for a definition of something. So when we say the word sales, we know the caricatures and the characters that are portrayed in media and in films and we think about the worst experience.

So instead of thinking of all the wonderful positive sales, like the fact that your dentist sells you, the fact that you bought your car and you went back and bought a second car from that same person, the fact that you use the same real term more than once, the fact that you go to the same cashier at the grocery store, these are all salespeople. We just don't categorize them as salespeople because they're not the guy or gal at the kiosk at the mall.

But I think, But I think your fear or concern around being that kind of salesperson is actually your best guardrail because since you're afraid of it, you're never going to be it because you're aware of it. Hmm. Why do you believe that sales is such a good life skill? I think it should be taught in high school.

We use it all day. And you might call it influence as well. But The first thing you do when you graduate is you go on a job interview. That's a sales conversation. But you're not taught that that's a sale.

You're taught that it's a job interview. It's something else. But you are literally using the exact same skill that a skilled sales professional would use to influence that interviewer to hire you.

And when you go and you convince your kids to eat their broccoli, when you convince your spouse or your business partner to go to this place versus that place, sale, sale, sale, sale. What are those same skills that I would use there that I would use to sell a splatball at the mall?

Or, you know, something. Like, what am I using in your world that is the same? So every good sales professional has a sales process. And some of them can articulate it, you know, the nine steps or whatever. But I whittle it down to five very simple steps that I think you use in any sale, whether it's a sale to get your kid to eat their broccoli, whether it's a sale to sell this flatball, whether it's a sale for a big negotiation as a consultant, as a coach, as a keynote speaker. First thing is you have to have a plan. You have to know what it is you're trying to accomplish to begin with. And having a really solid plan is good for anything.

It's good for going to the grocery store. It's good for a business, but it's good for the sale. And even if it's not some formal written out plan of attack, it's still a plan where you're very clear that my job is to make this happen in the next X amount of time.

Second thing is you have to find the right opportunity. So just like those folks at the kiosk in the mall, they're waiting for you to accidentally make eye contact. That's an opportunity.

When you accidentally walk too close to the kiosk, that's an opportunity. So find that moment where your plan and that chance occurs.

And sometimes you have to make it. Sometimes you make the opportunity for yourself. Then you have to establish trust. And this is the most important part, in my opinion, of any sales process.

Because without trust, no sales is going to happen. Even when I go to the grocery store, I have a trust exercise that happens before I reach on the shelf and get any product. I go through my mind and I think this is going to be safe for me to consumer use.

Trust. So there has to be that trust for the sale to actually occur. Then you have to ask. You have to ask for the business. You have to ask for the sale. And then there's some kind of follow up and follow through so that you make sure I become an advocate for you or I'm continuing to use your services,

use your products by them again. So at the very, very fundamental level, those are the five steps. And where do most people mess up their sales process or mess up their sales pitch or their whatever?

What keeps them from closing? So I think a lot of people don't ask. First of all, I think that's one of the most skipped sales process steps is you don't ask.

You know, you think, well, everybody knows that I do this and everybody knows that I have this store, this product, or they know I work for this company. Well, did you ask for their advocacy? Did you ask them to help you? Did you ask for them to support you?

And I see this a lot with managers, even, where they're trying to get their teams to grow the business, let's say. And they say, okay, well, it's going to take us all. Everybody all hands on deck. Well, if I don't leave that meeting knowing exactly what you want me to go do in my role and I'm not client facing, I don't think I have any bearing on this outcome. I don't feel empowered to go do it.

You didn't ask me to do anything. But when you say, okay, Cindy in your role, and I know you're not client facing, but when you have to get back to a colleague so they can get back to a customer, can you try to shave a couple minutes off of that. Now I know what to do. You asked me for the sale. You asked for my buy -in. So it makes it a whole lot easier if people know exactly what the assignment is.

So why don't people ask? We're afraid of rejection. We're afraid they're going to say no. We're afraid, you know, oh gosh, it's going to be the worst thing ever if they don't buy into this. But what's funny is they're having the buyer's remorse conversation without you.

So find out if it's a yes or a So enh out, and way. way, and keluar utility conflicts rise riseith rise rise rise way, and rise generously rise way rise rise rise birth rise wayclass, and birth rise cook preference keywords birth Vacc March claim rise rise rise habitats birthக way way rise vurängen yem rise way way way rise tissues birth rise SeaMm way Zoe way completa Staff rise Blo birth 260 residence way dura way rise vuelta birth aquellos Tom way? birth Marshall where it kind of falls down.

Was there a why behind it, where we clear on why this is important or was it just a directive? And so knowing those pieces actually help you to not only be a better communicator, better leader, but a stronger organization. Because then everybody really does feel empowered over that opportunity to help. I guess I hear what you're saying.

One of the things with the sales, I guess, conversation or the sales thing that I personally have struggle with and let me just throw it out there from just the business side of things is the chasing,

is the creating the opportunity, right, as you would say. and I sit there and I go ugh like it's Like,

where are you looking for these people? Are you, do you really have to chase them for six months? Is that the right prospect for you? Is that the right person to go after? Is that the sales cycle?

And if that's the normal sales cycle, great. But is there a way to shorten that? So that would be the first thing is let's look at the plan and kind of look at the pond we're fishing in. And then the second piece is that opportunity part is, how do you advocate? How are you getting other people to advocate for you? You know, marketing and advertising tells us that we have to see the same ads six to eight times before we recognize that there's a new whatever product.

There's your six months. It's that follow -up six to eight times. It's human behavior. So everything we do at my consulting company based in human behavior research, like everything is based in, you know, we're a bunch of nerds over here.

So we do everything on that. And so it's around how you're changing behavior for people. And I think the biggest thing that I would say is, that comes with it so i really i really like that aspect of things um when we get into this idea of brand and selling and um nerding out on human behavior whatever what are some things that you love to talk about from the human behavior standpoint that is really helpful for people out there when they're selling, selling a product, selling an idea. What's something there that you can give us, some nugget where it's like, oh, you should pay attention to this the next time you go into a sales conversation of any kind. So the first thing that I always teach is ABC, which is not the old ABC of selling.

That was always be closing. I don't agree with that. I don't think you should ever close. A sale should be the beginning of a partnership. The sales should be the beginning of a relationship. So why in the world would you ever call it closing?

So I've never understood that. But I teach a different kind of ABC and it's always be curious. So here's the nerd part of it, the PhD moment, is, you know, most people like to talk about themselves. Most people want to understand how something is going to impact them. What's the personal nature of it? And I'm not talking about personal in terms of becoming friends with your prospects, but personal in terms of how is your product or service going to impact their world, make their life easier, make their business better and stronger. And if you can get to that part by being curious, they're going to tell you exactly what it is they need so that you can invite them to work with you.

But if you're not curious and you go in with your script of, I'm going to tell you all the 47 points that we have of what we do and what we offer. That's only about you. It has nothing to do with them. So I teach in all of our work that we do is around what's the treat for them and leading with that to make sure they feel like you're the most important, they're the most important thing, that they are really the reason. And sometimes the answer is that you have to walk away because you don't have a solution for them. Managers make this mistake actually and leaders make this mistake where they go in and they think, well, it's a corporate initiative. We need, we need buy -in. We need 100 % participation. Tell me why it's good for me. Tell me how it's going to be good for my job. Tell me how it's going to be good for me today.

And that becomes part of your brand as a leader is showing me that you care about me, that you see me, you value me. And then it's going to make me want to buy into that idea.

But if it feels like it's a mandate, you know, this happened when CRMs came around 20 years ago. And everybody's like, if it's not in CRM, it doesn't When you talk about this from a manager leadership standpoint, whether they're in a sales department or whether they're in HR or finance or marketing or whatever, it's a different thing we're talking about, but yet the same.

You may again, not selling a widget, you're selling an idea, you're selling a new program you're selling some new vision of what you're trying to do and when we go into that process it's really hard for i think for some leaders they're like why isn't everybody on board like this i say things and they're really smart yeah but people don't get on board um i usually tackle that angle from like personality styles and and you are selling things from a logical standpoint when the person you're selling to wants it from a values type framework um can you talk about personality styles and do you go into that adapting to the person across from you yeah i think you have to and that's where the plan comes into place is how you know how are they going to receive that message So just going back to those five steps, like, what's your plan to get buy -in from your whole group around whatever the message is? So let's say you're selling your idea. You're selling that vision. Well, IT is going to receive that a whole lot differently than your sales department.

So in your messaging, you change the messaging for the room and reading the room and knowing that. So it's personality to a degree, but I actually think it's more than personality. It's messaging. And it's the way that you articulate how it's going to help each of those individuals.

And I see this happen a lot also with leaders when, you know, again, corporate mandate, something is changing. And it's even out of maybe leadership's hands. Well, that's a little harder pill for you to even swallow to push down if you don't quite understand the why. So you've got to have a better plan of how you're going to do it. what's your follow -up conversation is going to be to ensure buy -in and follow -up and follow -through.

And I think that for most leaders, they know what to say. It's not what to say. It's how to say. It's not the what. It's the how. Yeah, absolutely. So good. So good. There's a lot of people out there that will also say, but I'm not a salesperson. Like, I don't need that.

If you're not doing it right, how do you expect them to? And like you said, whether you are in a support role or an IT role or, you know, some of the role inside an engineering role, whatever you're doing, you may sit in a corner with headphones on and do something on your computer eight hours a day.

but at some point you are going to be selling and it's so vital for people to understand if they can trust you or not that goes into your brand and what have you done in the past to cause them to want to believe you or get on board with your thing when you do speak up have we have we already burned a bridge that now we have to rebuild and then we complain that nobody's getting on board with what we have to say or nobody listens to my ideas but it's like you burn so many bridges before i don't want to listen to you yet you know like um i think that that's a a big thing can you give me a story of somebody that uh that had that's had a big impact a big aha moment for them was oh my gosh i i can do this or I didn't like it before that was icky before.

I think I had to do this before, but now it's something that I love, something that I embrace. So actually, yeah, there's a great story. It was an insurance underwriter that was a client of ours, and it was a state manager. And when she came to us, she needed to grow her business. And originally, the idea was that it was her sales team that was the problem. Whenever we going to an organization, we assess the organization first.

I came back and I said, yeah, your sales team could be doing things differently, but it's actually your service team that needs the most help. And she was like, oh, they're subject matter experts. These people have, you know, 30 plus years in the business. I'm like, that's not the problem. The problem is they're not selling. They're not selling their ideas properly. And so we started with her. And we started coaching her and helping her to understand a better plan, get a plan together, helping each side of the house buy into what the client experience looked like. So everybody was rowing in the same direction because that was part of the rub.

The sales would sell something and then the service side of the house was dealing with it. And it was a bit of friction. It's like, well, they're overselling it and over promising and they're under delivering.

So we said, well, hold on let's just get everybody on the same plan focusing on the same goals and so we mapped out the client experience and we said okay let's in a perfect world from the service side of the house what does it look like from the sales side of the house what does it look like well what's funny Skot is it looked the same of course like everybody wanted the same thing i said great so if we know that these are the things now let's look at your jobs and let's figure out who does what for each of these moments within the client experience. that was the problem.

You didn't ask for their buy -in. You just told them what to do. I said, this is it. You're now selling them on this idea because it's partially theirs. They're bought into it.

So then, fast forward, make the story short, we got them actually committing to specific things they were going to do. And we started with three. We said, okay, everybody can do three things, right?

We're not going to give you like a list of 55 things. everybody's going to do three. And for the next 60 days, everybody's going to do these. And every week, we're going to report in as a group. We're going to say how it's working.

That group, it was kind of amazing, actually, what they ended up doing. They were able to get better surveys from their clients. First of all, they started getting a lot more Google reviews. Second thing is they actually started getting more referrals, which was amazing to grow their business and they were starting to get more business from their clients simply because they were working together as a team. Clients weren't getting stuck in the bottleneck that went from sales to service. They weren't getting stuck in that weird little vast wasteland of communication that happens.

And so it was this incredible thing. So backing out of that, we finished by coaching the leader. And it was funny because I remember the day when she said this to me, she goes, you know, I never thought I was a sales manager but i guess i am and i said well what changed why are you now a sales manager and she said because my job is to sell them on the vision i need them to execute and i was like my work is done here one of my favorite stories one of my favorite that is an aha moment if i didn't hear one you know that's like that is so good um because Because she took on the identity of what that meant, because that meant something bigger than just the word, right? And, you know, it's that identity that she then owns and then she feels responsible for communicating that.

That is so cool. I love that. Tell me about this idea of unofficial, what's an unofficial sale? So I think we make those all day. That's the one where, you know, you're holding the door open for somebody because they have their arms full.

That's actually an unofficial sale. You're selling them on the fact that you're a good human because you held the door open for them. No words maybe were exchanged. Maybe there was a smile or a glance. But that's an unofficial sale.

You sold yourself to somebody else. So I think we do those all day. And that's part of who you are, your personal brand and people know you. Like there's a person in my name. about her personal brand.

And I was like, you did, huh? And she goes, yeah, because you told me that your personal brand is basically you are the kind of person who does this thing.

So my friend was not being really good to this other person. And I said, you are becoming the person that doesn't treat people very well. And that is your brand and it will follow you around. And I was like, I taught this to my seventh grader.

And she's making me so proud and so now i have a title for that it's an unofficial sale that's really awesome um because that person isn't you know that you're talking about the hold the door person that person is the kind of person that holds the door for people and they have their handsful you know it's that simple little memory that people have in their minds the millions of micro brand impressions that people have that shape that overall overall experience. Very good. Unofficial sale. Okay. Thank you. I now have vocabulary for what I was doing. Tell me about your books, though. You have like books in the background. I want to know what those are. And I want to know how they work. Who's the target for them and what's included in those? So every job is a sales job was my first book.

And I wrote it for my 18 year old self. it's the class that I missed and I think that we all should be taught and it's literally dedicated to anybody who ever said I'm not a salesperson it's you know a sales team could get something out of this absolutely it can help them shorten their sales cycle but it's really for everybody that needs to sell their ideas their products their services themselves and then the follow up to that is sell yourself which is on personal branding and how to create, live and sell a powerful personal brand and make a bigger impact. And that one's really great for leaders, for managers who are trying to build themselves. It's also really good for people in some kind of a transition or career transition or you're moving up. You're now a manager and you're managing who used to be your colleagues that you would hang out with.

That's a good one for them as well. And then the other ones are translations into different languages languages with books. Cool. That's very cool. And I assume anybody can get those anywhere.

They are available at every major bookseller. Okay, very cool. And I hear that you speak everywhere all the time, doing awesome stuff. And like, what's your tour look like?

What do you, where do you like to speak? What's your thing? Oh, my gosh. I love speaking. I love working events. I love working inside of organizations and helping to.

for your organization and then empowering you to be the best version of yourself and to sell yourself so that you can create greater influence in your career and in your life.

Oh, I bet you're kind of fun to listen to. Thanks, thanks. I try to make it fun and funny. I can see you. I mean, you've got a presence about you that is that's pretty bold fun and like out there i i feel like i would not fall asleep in one of your talks i hope not i give a lot of homework in my talks and and i i think it's important to give assignments so i try to do a lot of audience participation and

you know i really feel like if you're laughing you're learning so good give me some homework right now oh okay so i want to give it to you but i want to give it to the rest of your listeners too Okay,

okay. First thing is, I think you should take a brand inventory. Know what your personal brand is, know what you're selling. Ask some of your folks around you. Ask your kids, they'll always be honest. But,

you know, five words to describe you. And then find out if those are the words that you really want to be known as. You know, as a leader, are these the words that you really want? Are these your legacy? And then if they're not, figure out what you need to change. And then that's when you create that plan to really sell people on that different idea. Are you the guy or gal that holds the door open for somebody that has her hands full or not? If you're not known as that, but you think you are in your mind, let's change that because that's the part of your brand you need to sell others on. And it's like we have this idea where, well, my work persona and my home persona, you're still the same person.

We're all just human. So let's figure out how to meld those. But that's the first homework assignment. And then the second homework assignment is, I think you need to actually sell it. I think the goal is to figure out who you need to sell it to.

Go do something and ask for their support. And that asking is the hardest part because like we said earlier, you don't want to be told no. You don't, you know, you feel icky. But it's remembering that you're asking for someone's advocacy.

And if you've given them enough that they believe in you, they're going to want to help you. And I say this to people all the time. I'm like, do you have a net or do you have a network? Your network is purposefully Let's do it.

There's a thing out there called the Internet, and I want to know where people can find you. I've heard of it. I think it might stick around, you know. So they can find me on any of the major.

It's just a concept, right? They can find me on any of the social media platforms, 1st, Lady of Sales, First Lady of Sales, or if you just Google Dr. Cindy McGovern, it will come up as well. But I'd love to hear the success stories. I'd love to hear how folks actually take this assignment and do it. And that's one of my favorite things is when people will message me and they'll say, oh my gosh, I did it and it worked. So please do share those successes. Love it. Dr. Cindy, you're awesome. Thanks for being here. Thank you.

Thank you for having me. This was really fun. Are you influencing individuals into something that is empowering for them, where they feel empowered? They feel like there's a partnership going on. There's a conversation happening. Or are you manipulating? Are you withholding information in order to control the outcome of the event?

And therefore, disempowering the other individual, that's a problem and that's where the ick comes in if we can learn to influence and learn to build our influence through one building our personal brand but then number two three four five six is like she said plan creating a solid plan looking for opportunities sometimes creating the opportunities building that level of trust that we really all need and want in order to buy something from somebody else or for people to buy things from us, whether that is a widget or an idea. Are we asking? I think she honed in on this idea of asking and following up quite a bit as the thing that hurts our ability to get an idea across or people to buy into the thing that we're selling.

And if we don't understand that we need to ask, ask for that participation, ask for that thing that we need from those people, and then learn to follow up with them, we're going to have a hard time selling. Really, really smart. Always be curious. ABC. Always be curious. Ask questions and act as one of my colleagues says, like the dumbest person in the room. There's something very humbling about that and also that you're going to learn. You've got to learn what they And lastly,

I'm asking for a little bit of love, just a little bit. So please take a moment, follow, rate the show, the algorithms like that. It helps me get the word out. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

And until next time, stay unlocked.