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Episode Overview:
In this episode, Skot Waldron interviews Todd Cherches, the CEO and co-founder of BigBlueGumball, a New York City-based leadership development and consulting firm. The discussion revolves around unlocking visual thinking through "Visual Leadership," which is Todd's unique approach to leadership development. Visual Leadership is a methodology that leverages the power of visual thinking to help leaders think, communicate, and collaborate more effectively.
Todd shares his personal journey of how he became interested in Visual Leadership and the benefits of incorporating visual thinking into leadership development. He also provides practical tips and techniques for listeners who want to improve their visual thinking skills. Through the course of the episode, listeners will gain a better understanding of how Visual Leadership can be applied in their personal and professional lives, as well as the role it plays in promoting effective leadership practices. Overall, this episode is a valuable resource for anyone interested in learning about the intersection of leadership development and visual thinking.
Additional Resources:
Skot Waldron:
Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Unlocked, where we talk about unlocking the potential of people so that we can unlock the potential of organizations. And today I've got Todd Cherches from BigBlueGumball on the show. Todd is super fun and visual. He probably should be. He just wrote a book called VisuaLeadership. Now, Todd is also a leadership and executive coach. He is an adjunct professor at NYU and Columbia, and he is also a TEDx speaker. If you want to find out more about him, you can go to his website. He also has a giant list of amazing books that you should read, 52 books that you should read, business books. I'm going to go download that because I'm super excited. I love business books. So check that out.
In this interview, we talk about his book, VisuaLeadership, and why visuals are so impactful in our everyday life and why they're so impactful in leadership and how we lead others, and teaching leadership and absorbing leadership principles, and what the difference is between old school leadership, new school leadership, the idea behind his four anys, the idea before behind his two Rs. He's got a bunch of different principles here that we talk about in the show. And it's really good. A lot of good sound bites, a lot of fun little visuals. So I want you to count how many visuals he pulls out in this interview. There's a test at the end.
All right, Todd, we are ready to roll. How are you doing?
Todd Cherches:
I'm doing great, Skot. Great talking to you.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah, it's really good to have you. I am super interested in your story behind this library, plethora of books behind you here. So tell me what that's all about.
TODD CHERCHES:
Sure. Well, growing up, I was big on, I don't know if you got to watch my TEDx talk, but I talked about how as a kid, I wanted to be, people say, what do you want to be when you grow up, and I would say Superman. And they'd say, well, if you can't be Superman, what's your backup plan? And my backup plan was to be Batman. So those were my two career aspirations, Superman or Batman. So when I realized I couldn't do that, I decided to go into the TV industry, which we can talk about my years in the TV industry.
But even as a kid, even though I was a TV addict, I was also an avid book reader. So I started with the Hardy Boys mysteries, and reading the sports section of the paper every day. So I just became a big reader. I majored in English literature. And then around 1998, I started reading business books, and I got hooked.
And I started reading, I was working for the American Management Association at the time, revamping their mini MBA program, and I didn't know anything about management. So I had to start reading all these books, and I got so hooked after having so many horrible bosses. I was reading all these books about management and leadership. I started reading one after another. That was 1998. So in the last 22 years, I've averaged one business book a week. So I passed 1100 or maybe even 1200 recently. So this is just a small sampling of my collection.
SKOT WALDRON:
That is crazy. Okay, couple of questions that are going off of this. Number one, how do you finish a book in one week? Now, Jim Kwik talks about all those ways of speed reading, right, Timothy Ferriss, whatever. So what's your secret to reading one book a week?
TODD CHERCHES:
Well, one, I read really fast. Two, I kind of have a formula. I actually started writing, I have notes for a blog post, which I haven't had a chance to do yet, some of my secrets, but just real fast, it's like, I read the front, the flaps, I read the back cover. I read the table of contents. I jump to the end. I skim the index and I just get an overview of the book. And then starting from the beginning, when you have a big picture perspective, it makes it easier. It's not like with reading a novel where you want it to unfold slowly. With a business book, you want to know what's in it. Where do I focus on? Is it worth my time?
So that's what I do. I spend probably, I'd say I probably spend 20 minutes just getting the lay of the land of a book before I dive into it. And then I just read really fast. I always read with pen and highlighter in hand, and circling. And the hard part is like, oh, where was that one paragraph from Jim Kerr's book, Indispensable, and it was on page 50. It's like, that's a test of my memory, but I'll remember, oh, I circled that thing in red. And so I could go back and find that quote. So that's the challenge, is one is the reading of it, but two is remembering what you read and then being able to use it in the real world when you need it.
SKOT WALDRON:
Right on. I definitely have to have a highlighter. Every time I read a book, I have a highlighter and I'm just going through stuff, and I'm like, I'm going to write down all these notes. I'm going to put them on LinkedIn, or I'm going to do something. And it's like, oh man, that thing I read six months ago, you know, it's so, anyway.
TODD CHERCHES:
[inaudible 00:05:36] like, this is my post-its, markers.
SKOT WALDRON:
Oh, I haven't got to the post-it level yet.
TODD CHERCHES:
Yes. And I have different color post-its for different things. So I remember, oh, that's the red one. I have these little marker ones. I have different sizes. And then with a lot of books, if there's something really important, I'll write it down in the front of the book. So I'll find a blank page and I'll write down where to find, oh, that quote I really love was on page 89. So I create my own kind of index or table of contents.
SKOT WALDRON:
That's smart.
TODD CHERCHES:
Those are just some tricks to, if you really want to access a book later, you engage with it, as opposed to just reading it, which is why I like hard copies, as you can tell, as opposed to Kindle, where you're just doing this and it's easy to drift off and forget what you're reading.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah, I haven't gotten into the digital book thing yet. I've tried. I just, I like the tactical thing. I like to [crosstalk 00:06:24] in it. So then, what are your top three books, not yours, that you would suggest?
TODD CHERCHES:
That's a tough one. That's a tough one. And we can talk about it later, but if people go to my website, they can download my list of my top 52 books that most influenced me, so if you go to toddcherches.com/subscribe. But if I had to pick three, put on the spot, Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People, written in 1936, was a classic. I found that on my mother's bookshelf when I was in high school. And I later became a Dale Carnegie trainer. So I really got into those principles. Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, it's one of the top selling, if not the top selling, business book of all time for a reason.
And my favorite more recent one that's not really that recent anymore is Marshall Goldsmith's What Got You Here Won't Get You There, which is right above my head. It's basically, the subtitle is Here Are The 20 Workplace Habits You Need to Break. So I use this as, it's my top recommendation for my executive coaching clients, because they read this book and follow these 20 tips, they're going to be so much more effective immediately. So put on the spot, those are my top three.
SKOT WALDRON:
Rock on. Now, let's transition-
TODD CHERCHES:
What's yours? I've got to turn it back on you.
SKOT WALDRON:
Oh, gosh.
TODD CHERCHES:
Give me one, at least.
SKOT WALDRON:
Well, okay. So I am super intrigued right now with The Go-Giver. Reading that, and it's super thin, super short, but pretty impactful. So that's one of them. I also recently finished the book Soundtracks.
TODD CHERCHES:
I don't know that one.
SKOT WALDRON:
Jon Acuff, he's here, well, I think he's in Nashville now. He's a comedian, speaker, but he talks about setting goals a lot, and this one's about soundtracks. So the soundtracks we play in our mind shape our reality. So that one, super, super strong. And I'm going to look over here at my other one. And I would have to say that one of my, Profit First, about utilizing as an entrepreneur and as a coach, is about managing my finances and making sure that we're paying ourselves, is a big [inaudible 00:08:50], so about money management, was super, super smart. And he wrote a book called The Pumpkin Plan, as well, that's out there. Super smart. So anyway.
TODD CHERCHES:
Yeah, the hard thing is just keeping up, right? There's so many amazing books out there, but each one is like, you know, you could take a class for weeks, or you can read a book and invest three or six hours and you get all this knowledge. So that's why I'm such a big business book fan.
SKOT WALDRON:
I love it. I love it. I've gotten the bug for sure, for sure. I'll let you know when I hit 11, 12,000 books.
TODD CHERCHES:
Hopefully mine will be one of them.
SKOT WALDRON:
It will be, it will be. So tell me about your book. Let's transition over to your favorite book of all time, VisuaLeadership. I'm a visual guy. I've owned a graphic design firm for 11 years. I'm a visual communicator. I went to school for design. Visual design is my thing. Visual leadership has now become my thing. I believe in visual tools. I believe in communicating that way. And you hit on that, as well. And so tell us about VisuaLeadership, how that came about. You've read thousands of books, and now you want to write your own. Why this one?
TODD CHERCHES:
Well, a number of reasons. First of all, like I said, I came out, I worked in the TV industry for a number of years. So my first job out of college was at Ogilvy & Mather advertising. I was in the media division, buy network TV time, handled American Express and some other clients. So being around advertising was an amazing experience, which is, as you know as a marketing guy and communicating there, how do you communicate and sell and influence in 30 seconds? There's an art and magic to that.
But I really wanted to work in TV in some capacity. So I moved out to LA after a year at Ogilvy & Mather in New York, which is where I grew up, and I did a number of temp jobs and part-time jobs. I [inaudible 00:10:32] at Aaron Spelling, just putting scripts together for Dynasty. My first job actually was from Michael Nesmith of The Monkees. I worked in marketing for his company. Most of my millennial students have no idea who that is, but all these baby boomers and gen X-ers tend to know The Monkees.
And then I was in casting at Columbia Pictures. I was in comedy at Disney and drama at CBS. Those were my years in the TV industry, developing TV shows. And then I got out of television into the theme park business, as a project manager. And I managed a theme park project in China, which I talk about in my TED talk. And then after 10 years in LA, I moved back to New York. But it hit me that so much of what we did out there in the entertainment industry was storytelling. And it's visual. It's a visual medium. But even, as I mentioned, I was an English literature major with a concentration in Shakespeare and poetry, visual language, right?
So whether you're using pictures or language, you're still trying to get people to see what you're saying. So that's like my catchphrase and my mantra. How do you get people to see what you're saying? How do you get an idea from your head into someone else's head, so that they get it? And why visuals? I use the three words, attention, comprehension, and retention. When you use visual imagery or visual language, it gets people to focus, because they're looking, they're seeing it with their physical eye or hearing it, and they're seeing it in their mind's eye. Comprehension, they understand it better, and retention, they remember it.
So if you could make something visual, so for example, here's the show and tell part, if you're talking about why of something, I might say, "Hey, what are you curious about?" So even with my NYU students, I'll pull out a Curious George, and it'll be like, you know, when things are fun and entertaining, you're engaged, right? I may be talking about how flexible are you? Do you bend over backwards to serve your clients? I may talk about, here's what I've never done before, first time, and I've talked about this, in what ways is training a new employee like training a puppy? So you never think about that. And as a visual, I might just say, "Hey, I just happen to have a puppy right here," and we can talk about that.
SKOT WALDRON:
I'm really sad for the people that are only listening to this right now, because this is great. I love it.
TODD CHERCHES:
That was Lucy, our 10 month old puppy who sits next to me all day long. But again, if someone whips a rabbit out of a hat or a puppy on a podcast, you're going to remember that. So it's like how do you stand out from the crowd? That's the big part of what visual leadership is all about.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah. And visual communication is humongous when we talk about anything in policy. I was doing some trainings with somebody from the CDC, and we were going around and talking about communication. And how do you deliver hard news to a population? Oh, there's lead in your water. I'm sorry your children have cancer now. How do we deliver that in a town hall? How do we discuss such intense situations?
And we went through a bunch of exercises, and the famous one about visual is when you look at Richard Nixon, claiming I'm not a crook. As soon as he stopped, you watch a clip, as soon as he stops and finishes, he says, are there any questions? He steps back. He folds his arms, and he looks around like this. And that visual cue said so much more than his words ever could. And so it's really, really powerful. So tell us about visuals and what they mean. How do you use them in the course of leadership? How do you use them when you are talking about leadership in the context of coaching your clients?
TODD CHERCHES:
Sure. Well, the title of the book, VisuaLeadership, which I'll hold up just for a second, it's one word. I actually got the trademark on the word VisuaLeadership as spelled, and the idea behind why one word with a shared L is that who you are and how you lead is inseparable from the lens through which you see the world, right? It's your background, your biases and assumptions, your culture, your life experiences. When you make leadership decisions, it's based in your reality that exists in your mind and in your head.
So one of the concepts is that, if you notice there's a rainbow colored eye on the cover of the book, the rainbow represents diversity and inclusion, and the fact that no one in the world has a rainbow eye. Similarly, no one in the world sees the world exactly the same way you do. You have a twin sibling, and they don't see the world the same way you do. And my father and my uncle were twins. They definitely did not see the world in the same way. So I have living proof from my own life.
So one of the things we need to do as a leader is what I call flipping the eye. We need to turn the eye on ourselves, question our biases, our assumptions, belief systems, but also look at the world through the lens of other people. So if you're a marketer, you need to see the world through the lens of your customers. If you're a manager, you need to see the world through the lens of your employees.
So there are stakeholders who have different views of the world, just as we do. A big part of visual leadership is how we connect with them. How do we get them to see what we're saying, but also, how do we see what they're saying? How do we get things? So in the world of diversity, inclusion, belonging, and equity, that's one of the hottest topics right now. It's so important to see the world with empathy and compassion through the lens of people who are different from us.
SKOT WALDRON:
And how does that start? How do you start to see the world through the eyes of other people?
TODD CHERCHES:
Well, first it's just awareness. I think that's with anything. It's like, if you're not aware of your biases and assumptions, you need to hit the pause button and look in the mirror. And we'll talk about metaphors in a second, but those are two mixed metaphors. But you really do need to realize, first of all, it's just the realization that people see things differently. Secondly, it's being proactive and seeing things through other people's perspectives. And how do we do this? I break it down into four categories in my book and in my TED talk, using visual imagery and drawing. So that's one category, is using pictures, basically. That's why a picture's worth a thousand words. How do you communicate something with an image?
Category two is using models and frameworks, like an organizational chart, like a four box matrix, or a process map, or a mind map, or a storyboard. You lay things out in some structure that people can see. Using metaphors and analogy, saying something is like something else, right? Just as I said, training an employee is like training a puppy in some ways, and yet different in other ways. Talk about that. So using metaphors and analogies will compare things. And what they do, also, is they make the intangible, tangible, the abstract, concrete, and the invisible, visible, because you can actually see things.
And we're talking about metaphors. I'm a big baseball fan, Mets and Yankees. But if I'm talking about using a baseball analogy with a 25 year old female student from Beijing, that's not going to resonate, right? So a good metaphor will connect with someone, while a poorly chosen metaphor will alienate or confuse someone. So we really need to, again, put ourselves in the shoes of our listener. So we always want to think about what's my purpose and who is my audience. So I may want to use a nature analogy, which is more universal, and say, so think about, you know, we need to plant the seed for an idea, get to the root of the problem, go out on a limb, branch out in different directions, and see which ideas bear fruit. I just used five tree metaphors in one paragraph. If we could do that, we could be more effective.
And category four is storytelling and humor. Bonus points for humor, because humor makes people smile. If people are smiling, they're engaged. If they're engaged, they're remembering. So those are my four categories, and we need to basically use them not only in silos, but in combination to get our messages across.
SKOT WALDRON:
So communicating, thinking more visually through metaphor, through trying to create that picture in people's minds, is a lot more effective, you're claiming.
TODD CHERCHES:
Yes. It's kind of, again, for people seeing the video, here's a Venn diagram, right? Visual leadership is the application of visual thinking and visual communication to the world of leadership and management. When you merge the two, then you really get people to see what you're saying. You need to, this is my PowerPoint show without slides. How do you frame an idea to get it out of your head, into someone else's, so they can say, I see what you're saying?
So that's the foundation. You know that as a design thinker and marketing guy. It's like, who's my audience and how am I going to position this message in such a way that they'll get it, it'll resonate with them? And what do you want people to think, feel, know, and ultimately do is the goal of any messaging, whether it's in a leadership context or in a marketing context, or really any communication.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah. Visuals are such a strong communication tool. I mean, we spend our day daydreaming. We spend our nights night dreaming. And creating those visual pictures and those images in our minds, those movies that play, create emotions in us that trigger us to action. Those emotions are what actually motivate us to actually do something, and those are triggered based on those pictures and stories that we're telling ourselves in our minds.
TODD CHERCHES:
Exactly. People are not motivated by facts and figures. They're motivated emotionally by stories. And we all know that. And one of the chapters in my book is called How My Cardiologist Almost Gave Me A Heart Attack, because he was looking at my numbers from my cardiology exam, and he said, this was a new cardiologist who I hadn't been to before, he said, "Oh, based on your numbers, you have a 5% chance of having a heart attack within the next 10 years." I almost fainted right then and there. But then I said, "Doesn't that mean there's a 95% chance that I won't?" He was like, "Yeah, that's another way of looking at it. Your results are completely normal for a 50 year old male." I'm like, "Couldn't you have started with that, instead of like making me pass out and thinking I was on death's door?"
So it's like, the numbers may have said that, so maybe he was not inaccurate, but was that the message he wanted to portray? I really don't think so. So that's just one example of how we can misuse numbers, and then our message is lost.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah. And I'll pose this to you, as a marketer, talking about loss frame messaging versus gain frame messaging, he gave you loss frame messaging. You have a 5% chance of dying, loss frame. Fear can motivate us can, right? When we deal with public health and we talk about smoking cessation, we talk about getting people to stop smoking, the messages of stop smoking, you should stop smoking, it's going to kill you, those were kind of scary. Or even better, stop smoking so you can live a longer life.
TODD CHERCHES:
So you can dance at your daughter's wedding. Whatever, right? That's the motivator.
SKOT WALDRON:
Well, those were ineffective, they found. Those messages, the messages of you should stop smoking because your loved ones won't have you around anymore, those became more effective because it dealt with something outside of themselves. They were there for a bigger purpose. But it was that whole story of, oh, I'm missing from this dialogue. I'm missing from something and I'm causing my other people pain. So there was something there that was with that. So a little bit of a sidetrack, but that's interesting, that your doctor put it that way and that you picked up on that.
So in your mind, the biggest problem, what is the biggest problem? I'm not going to say it, but what is the biggest problem you feel that companies have when it comes to culture, when it comes to leadership and developing leadership?
TODD CHERCHES:
I think one is, again, having a vision needs to be a story. It needs to be a picture of an idealized future state that's different from and better than the current reality. So you need to paint a picture that's engaging. Putting up Excel spreadsheets and showing our numbers for the year, it's like, people just fall asleep. That's not motivating. That's not going to increase engagement or loyalty or performance. So it's about, like you said, it's about influence, right? It's about behavior change. It's about getting people on board.
Dale Carnegie said the only way to get someone to do something is to get them to want to do something. So you can do something, you can get compliance, but you may not be getting willing cooperation and commitment. And if people are engaged, you don't have to manage them. You just have to lead them. You set them up for success. I always say R and R, resources and roadblocks. Give people the resources they need and remove the roadblocks that stand in their way, and let them spread their wings and fly.
And I think now more than ever, as we go into the post-pandemic world, managers need to be more leaders and coaches, and especially as you have hybrid workforces and we need to be more flexible and we need to see things with empathy and compassion from different people's point of view. There's no one size fits all way of managing people. People are not robots. Most people are not in factories or on assembly lines. And even those who are, you still need to connect with the human being. So I think that's one of the biggest things is visual leadership will help you to do that, will help you to see things from multiple perspectives and use creativity to find new and different and better ways to manage and lead people, including yourself, really.
SKOT WALDRON:
So what about young leadership? What about the leadership that's starting to just step into new manager positions, that is just kind of getting their feet wet? They're kind of getting into that first opportunity to manage other people. What's the difference between, I would say, more of the new generation of leaders, versus the older generations of leaders in that world?
TODD CHERCHES:
Yeah. I mean, again, I'm on the cusp of baby boomer, gen X. And back in those days, the manager could say, "Do this." And the reason why was, "Because I said so." That doesn't fly anymore. It shouldn't have flown back then, and it really didn't. But I think with the younger people, you need to explain the why, not necessarily you have to tiptoe around things, but people want to know the why. Younger people are more digital natives. They're more tech savvy, social media savvy. So we need to leverage those tools and meet them where they are, not expect them to adapt to old-fashioned, dinosaur [inaudible 00:24:20] dinosaur ways of doing things. We need to basically leverage, you know, I have something called the four anys, that anyone, anywhere, can do anything, anytime.
So if you're managing people, well, it doesn't have to be in the office. It doesn't have to be nine to five. You can help people, encourage them to find their own way of doing things, instead of following the here's the 10 step process we've been using for the last 30 years. So again, I think it's actually in a way exciting, because it allows the leaders to be more innovative and more creative in finding new ways of doing things. Because again, the old ways don't always work.
And we also need to be better listeners, too, because a lot of times, the old hierarchy of going from mail room to the corner office, there's no mail room anymore because there's no more mail. And the corner office is like, who cares? I'm in the corner office in this room. So this is my corner office. So that old way of, you know, and no one's getting a gold watch for 25 years of loyal service anymore. So that's out the door. So we need to look at things with fresh eyes, visually thinking and speaking, and find new and better and more fun ways of doing things. Work should not be drudgery. It should be engaging and empowering and exciting.
SKOT WALDRON:
Fantastic. So your book actually came out last year. It's still selling like hotcakes, thanks to COVID, for some weird reason, right? I mean, there's a lot that you credit, you gave COVID, we talked about before the show. So that's fantastic.
TODD CHERCHES:
Not COVID, necessarily the disease. It's not this guy. But there was the fact that we're all online on Zoom and on social media so much that my reach got more global, and faster than it would have if I was going one bookstore at a time. So yes, in that way it has been productive.
SKOT WALDRON:
Do you just have printouts of random slides sitting around your desk so that you can pull up something?
TODD CHERCHES:
I do. I'm the prop comic management leadership guy. So it's like, one of the things that I talk about is if our minds are closed, we're not going to be able to see things differently. But if we open up our minds, it creates all this space to explore new possibilities. So I have tons of stuff. I have dogs. I have all kinds of things at my disposal.
SKOT WALDRON:
Man, you come in like a magician's case, walking into a leadership meeting, don't you? That's fantastic.
TODD CHERCHES:
It makes it fun. It's engaging. And again, teaching at NYU and Columbia last year, for the last three semesters, actually, if you're on Zoom, you need to engage with people. You need to find a way to make it entertaining, engaging, or you just, it's just deadly. So whether it's in person or online, you need to find a way to connect with people.
SKOT WALDRON:
So true. So true. Where can people get a hold of your book?
TODD CHERCHES:
Yeah, anywhere books are sold, Amazon or really anywhere. And to learn more, go to my website, toddcherches.com. And you can find my TEDx talk there, as well as download that book list I mentioned of my top 52 books to help you be a more visual leader. And feel free to connect with me. Just say you saw me on Skot's show and [inaudible 00:27:16] with me.
SKOT WALDRON:
Awesome. Yeah, I'm going to definitely check out that 52 books link. I'm always looking for something good. I just sent an email out to my list, and actually just said, what books should we read? And people love talking about what books they've read lately. So very, very cool. I appreciate you being on the show. So glad that you wrote a book about visual leadership. I think it is something that's needed. I think that we don't talk about it enough, and that's how stories are told and that's how we retain them, as well. So good luck, Todd. Super awesome having you here. And we will connect soon.
TODD CHERCHES:
Sounds great. Thank you so much.
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