Unlocking Why Change Management Keeps Failing With Dr. Rosie Ward

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Timestamps:
00:00:00 – Cold Start & Intro
00:04:36 – The Change Story That Happens Every Single Day
00:06:41 – Why We’re Not Wired for Change
00:07:42 – Is It Really Change We Resist?
00:11:31 – The 7 Faulty Programs Running Your Brain
00:17:35 – Control Freaks, Mimes & People Pleasers
00:21:24 – Why We Lead Humans Like Machines
00:27:19 – How a 100-Year-Old Company Finally Changed
00:34:00 – Inside Future-Proofing Leadership
00:38:01 – The Stories We Tell Ourselves

Dr. Rosie Ward (00:02.00)
And they fail to care for how human beings actually show up in the face of change, particularly adaptive change.

Either I don’t want to be dependent on another person because I don’t think they can do it as well as I can, or I don’t want to be a burden to them. I don’t want to appear selfish. Or it’s just the sense of like, I’m on my own, I can’t rely on anybody, they’re going to let me down, so I might as well do it myself.

Doing the mindset work and also creating an opportunity for employees to be a part of the change.

Skot Waldron (00:35.00)
When I’m not hosting Unlocked, I’m speaking at events all over the world. I’m helping leaders and I’m helping teams communicate better. I’m helping them build trust faster and actually enjoy working together. I’ve spoken for companies like The Home Depot. I’ve spoken at national architectural firms. I’ve spoken for pharmaceutical company offsites. I’ve spoken at associations, you name it.

With 99% of attendees of all those events, over 1800 people have reviewed me at this point. 99% of them saying they got some value. That’s pretty awesome. Even the caterers have thanked me. And if they are thanking me and they’ve heard a lot of talks and they’re busy doing their jobs, that’s saying something. If you’re an event planner looking for a speaker who’s really easy to work with, trust me, I want to be the last thing you’re worried about on event day. I’m going to take care of you. And who actually delivers value for your audience that they are going to use on Monday morning when they return to the office, then let’s talk.

Thanks for being here today because we are going to talk about something that happens all the time, something I talk about all the time. And that’s about change. And we’re going to kick off this thing talking about do we really like change? Do we not really like change? Is it the change that we really don’t like? Is it something else? You’re going to find out. So, stay with me.

And this conversation with Dr. Rosie Ward was a long time coming. I’ve seen her all over the place. We kind of cross paths in different ways. And I love that she was able to come on. She has a new book called Future-Proofing Leadership that is out now. And we’re going to talk a little bit about that at the end so you can kind of get a glimpse of what that’s about. Hit Amazon bestsellers in three categories, which is super cool for her. So, I know she does some good work, and you can hear it, and like the stuff she’s saying is based on research, based on knowledge, based on a lot of studies, based on a lot of experience. It’s up a level, y’all. So, check it out.

Dr. Rosie Ward is a leadership and culture transformation expert, CEO of Salveo Partners, and a fierce advocate for rehumanizing workplaces. Rehumanizing is the thing she talks about quite a bit. An award-winning speaker, author, coach, and podcast host, she helps leaders navigate disruption with greater courage, clarity, and authenticity. Recognized as a Top 50 Women Leader in Minnesota, a LinkedIn Top Voice, and the 2024 Female Voice Award Business Coach of the Year, Rosie is the bestselling author of Rehumanizing the Workplace, How to Build a Thriving Culture at Work, and Future-Proofing Leadership, which is her new book. Her podcast, Show Up as a Leader, is ranked in the top 5 percent of global leadership podcasts. She’s talked a lot about the stuff. And she’s going to talk a lot about the stuff right now. Here we go.

Rosie, finally we’re together on the show. I see your name all over the place, but I never get to like see you in person and well, we’re not totally in person, but you know, this is close we’re going to get. Close enough. So, it’s so good to have you finally on the show. Thanks for being here.

Dr. Rosie Ward (03:52.00)
It’s so good to finally connect. Thank you for having me.

Skot Waldron (03:54.00)
Yeah, we hang out in the same circles and kind of cross virtual paths, and this is fun. So, let’s talk about something that I really that I hit on multiple times in my keynotes and you know workshops and things that I do, but I always want your different perspectives and you have been hitting this drum and I’ve watched your YouTube channels and seen you talk about change a lot and you know, your new book’s going to hit on some of this stuff. And so, I don’t know. Can you set this up with a story? What do you got out at now where you experienced this where you felt the need to just talk about this to the world?

Dr. Rosie Ward (04:36.00)
Well, I will start with saying where doesn’t it happen? Because as human beings, we don’t like change. But I’ll just paint a scenario that literally happens every single day. And I hear it with clients. So, you got a client who needs to upgrade their system. Cause as we know, technology becomes outdated. So, they have to update their inventory system. They have to update their HR system. They have to update, pick whatever system runs their business. They’ve got to go through system upgrades. And we think there’s all these technical components. We do change management processes. The whole project is project managed. They have a communication plan. They’ve got all this stuff to transfer how they do business over to whatever the new system is. And then they wonder why people are fighting, complaining. You have interpersonal conflict. Should be just really simple, right? We’re implementing a new system. We follow these protocols. We used all the change management methodologies. We have change management protocols in place for the system.

We’re not thinking about the human beings that have to use the system. And now suddenly there is an engagement crisis. There is a productivity crisis. There is a retention crisis. There’s a whole lot of things. People are not effective because they’re stuck complaining about this doesn’t work as well. I don’t understand this. Why can’t we just do it the old way? Some people are blatantly doing things the old way because it feels more comfortable. And here we go.

So, this is like something that, and you could pick whatever, but it doesn’t matter the industry. I see this happen all the time. And then you got you have some organizations that are glutton for punishment that will do multiple big changes at once. Maybe they’re also going through an acquisition. And I see this all the time. And where we come in is that’s great that you followed pick it, Prosci, ADKAR, whatever the change management methodology is, that is great. And they fail to care for how human beings actually show up in the face of change, particularly adaptive change, those that require mindset change, heart change. It’s not just fill in the blank. And we typically get it backwards and wrong.

And so, where when we think about future proofing organizations and future proofing people and leaders, it is how do you actually equip people to show up well in the face of uncertainty and disruption, because it’s not going away, in the face of change, because we know the one thing constant in this world is change. And we are not wired as human beings to handle change well, no matter what we like to think. When people say, “I love change,” they love change that they control, they love change that they initiate. They don’t love change that pulls them deeply out of their comfort zone. And when we’re deeply out of our comfort zone, we show up in all kinds of unproductive ways that aren’t helpful.

And so really, that’s kind of my tee up of the work we do is really how do we help honor that and equip people with the awareness and tools to deal with their humanity? Because in this world of AI and disruption, we’re seeing this clash of change, technology, disruption, and how human beings show up in that environment.

Skot Waldron (07:42.00)
Okay. Let’s go back to something you said earlier though. Okay. Cause I want to like the way we set this thing up and the what I hear from my clients and you know, you get the eye rolls and the like why I got to drag these people along on this thing all the time and everybody’s so change adverse and nobody likes change and they just want to stick to the old way of doing things that they waited they’ve done it for 30 years because that’s what they like and I guess I have an issue with this idea that people don’t like change. I mean, is it the change that people resist, or do you think it’s something else?

Dr. Rosie Ward (08:29.00)
That’s a great question. And I think it depends. So, I mean, the reality is we are all changing all the time. Right. So, when people say it only changes, it’s like, well, we’re changing all the time. But I think the key is that where resistance to change comes in, is it’s not necessarily about the change itself. You are correct. It is about the stories that we make up about the change. It is about what the change. What we perceive the change is going to do to us, pulling us out of our comfort zone, having us feel out of control. It is our reaction to change. That’s why I say it’s how human beings show up in the face of change.

I literally got hired by an organization that got acquired and where they want me to do a change management workshop as part of their leadership summit next week. And I’m like, okay, this is going to be all about your mindset and what are the crappy stories that you are telling yourself and your teams are telling themselves about this change that keeps them stuck. That’s what I see in the work that we do.

Skot Waldron (09:32.00)
It’s fear and in an essence, right? Everybody’s afraid of something happening because if I wasn’t afraid, I wouldn’t probably care about the change, right?

Dr. Rosie Ward (09:46.00)
Correct.

Skot Waldron (09:47.00)
If you are going to give me a brand-new car, that’s a change in my life. That I will probably accept as long as I don’t have to like pay taxes on it and do all the stuff, right? And do all the, but I mean, I will welcome a change that benefits me in some way, shape, or form. I always argue like we like change the way we like it, you know?

Dr. Rosie Ward (10:11.00)
When we feel in control of it.

Skot Waldron (10:13.00)
In control, if it benefits me, if I can see the value it’s adding to me, if I have to exert extra effort, if I have to, like you said, get out of my comfort zone and do something different, if I have to whatever, our brains see danger, and then we’re just like, oh no, what’s this going to mean for my job or my relationship or my life or whatever? And I think that people just get hung up on a lot of that.

Dr. Rosie Ward (10:39.00)
100%. Well, and I think that to piggyback on that, you know, in the absence of data, our brains naturally fill in the space with stories. That’s, I mean, as human beings, we are meaning making creatures. We create meaning since the dawn of time from storytelling. And so, if I am not clear about how this change benefits me or what this change is going to require of me, if I don’t feel in control of it, and again, it’s that uncertainty then you’re right, my brain fills in that space and usually it’s fear based and it’s I call it head trash and we don’t realize it. We don’t realize we’re telling ourselves a story. We think it’s fact and we get all caught up in it.

Skot Waldron (11:19.00)
Yeah. Cause if I thought…

Dr. Rosie Ward (11:21.036)
Welcome to being human. It’s messy.

Skot Waldron (11:24.00)
So, and if I thought it, it must be true. Yeah. Right. If I came up with it, it’s so true, right? So true.

You have come up with these 7 Faulty Programs that I want you to hit on these things for me. Can you do that? Give us kind of the overview.

Dr. Rosie Ward (11:42.00)
100%. Well, this feeds into the stories and what makes things scary. So, in just similar to you, in the work that we do, my brain works in patterns. And over the past decade plus, as we’ve consulted with organizations, coached individual leaders, work with teams, I just started to see all these patterns of where people get stuck, the narratives they tell themselves, where they can’t grow, where they get stuck with change.

And so, when I launched my podcast, Show Up as a Leader in the fall of 2020, I wanted to normalize this experience for listeners. And so, I ask all of my guests to share a self-limiting story that they still tell themselves and how, you know, and what do they do when it shows up? And what we were seeing from the answers of that question started to align with what we were seeing in our coaching and consulting work. And so about 2 years ago, I said, let’s start analyzing this because I want to see if the patterns that I intuitively think are there, are actually real or again this is like qualitative research one on one, which is very painful, but we did it.

So, we looked at interview transcripts, and we looked at maps from our coaching protocol and started to like go, what do we see? And as we analyzed hundreds of leaders, we saw these patterns emerge and we decided to call them our faulty programming because they’re more than just these psychological types that some people have wanted to compare this to. This is literally like our inner operating system. Just like your phone has an inner operating system. We have this inner programming that we downloaded in those early years of our life that we don’t even realize is running behind the scenes that tells us, you know, what is acceptable, tells us what we need to feel in control, find safety, love, belonging, all of those things. And that’s really what’s happening.

So, these faulty programs get in our way of facing change because they create that head trash, create the narrative. So, the first one is what we call the counterfeit, which is where what is the fear, because they’re all fear-based to your point, is vulnerability. We don’t want uncertainty, risk, or emotional exposure. When the counterfeit is in the driver’s seat, we feel like we have to somehow keep it all together, be impervious from being human. And so, what happens is people start hiding part of their authentic selves, feeling like they have to be something other than they should be, that they have to kind of keep this facade up, that they have it all together type of thing. And you can see, so that’s just take change. So now there’s a change. I’m not clear about it. It might make me look bad somehow. I might mess things up, whatever it is. And now suddenly I’m going to resist it because this inner operating system, this programming running beneath the surface is going danger, danger, danger Will Robinson, so to speak.

So that by far is the most common. And I will say we also identified three cousin programs. And on one of the cousin programs we decide to call the fraud. The fraud is basically imposter syndrome. And I thought that one actually would have been more prevalent. But the reason I’m bringing this up is that in 100% of the cases, everybody in our data set that was running the fraud was also running the counterfeit. It’s like the counterfeit on steroids. So, the counterfeit is like, I have to appear to have it all together. I can’t let my you know authentic self show. I have to hold it all together and be strong, blah, blah, blah. And the fraud takes it to another level and says, “ooh, and you got to be careful because you might get found out,” type of a thing.

So, the three cousin programs we identified never showed up on their own. They always go piggyback with one of the core faulty programs. And the fraud was one that everybody, not everybody that has the counterfeit, takes it to the imposter syndrome level. But every single person that has the fraud or that imposter syndrome is running the counterfeit. So, it’s just, it’s an amplified one, which I thought was interesting.

So then really quickly, the next one is the overachiever, which is fairly self-explanatory. But when the overachiever is driving, there’s a fear of not being enough. And so, we also have a warped sense of our worthiness and our value proposition that it is conditional on how much we get done, how much we achieve, how productive we are. And our workplaces reward overachieving tendencies. So, it only validates and feeds that cycle. And so, when the overachiever is driving, people will take on more and more and more and more. And because they’re trying to feel enough, but it never quite gets there.

So, let’s go back to the face of change. Let’s say that whatever the change is requires me as a leader to start to delegate more things to my team or develop my team to take on more and grow. Well, if I get my value from being the one who gets stuff done, asking me to develop my team, asking me to delegate to somebody else is now a threat. Because what value do I have? Am I at risk of just being overhead or that type of thing? And so, you start to see how this starts to get in the way of various changes that we are asking people to make when every ounce of their being is like, I have to be the one doing it, proving myself. You ask them to have better boundaries around their calendar. You ask them to have better time management. You ask them to prioritize; it doesn’t work so well. Right. So, you give them all the tactics and the tools, but they wonder why it doesn’t work because their inner operating system can’t support the skill, the tool, the tactic, whatever it is, if that makes sense.

The next one really quick is perfectionist, which is fairly self-explanatory. Right. So, it’s okay for other people to mess up or fail, but not me. That like, but if I mess up or I’m imperfect, then fill in the blank. People won’t respect me. Something’ll bad will happen, whatnot. So again, change is messy. Change is imperfect. So, if I can’t see how I can do this just perfectly, then I’m probably going to resist it and I’m going to fall back on what I know because I can do it perfectly. Right. So, it’s you can see how it’s going to get in your way when it comes to any kind of meaningful change.

Then the next one is control freak. And control freak is really interesting because what control freaks fear is uncertainty, which is problematic because there’s a lot of uncertainty around change. And so, control freaks will try to control conversations, control workflow. They get really stuck on the right way of doing things, which is aka my way of doing things. and they feel like they have to orchestrate that. And what’s interesting is if you really look at people running this program, it’s coming from this unconscious sense that I am somehow responsible for preventing bad things from happening. So, it’s actually coming from a place many times of noble intent, but if I can be in control, I can somehow prevent bad things from happening, whatever that might be. And again, you can see how that’s going to get in the way of a lot of different things that we need people to do to elevate and to grow.

Then the next one is what we call the mime. And the mime fears disharmony. And so, what the mimes will do are things like they pride themselves on being the peacekeeper. And so, they will avoid conflict. They will do things to appease other people; they will jump in and try to stabilize situations where they feel that conflict could occur. So, they’re going to get in the way of healthy debate, they’re going to just go along to get along, but it’s all about harmony, which is distinct from another one that looks similar, the people pleaser. So, the people pleaser and the mime behaviorally can look very similar, but they’re stemming from a different fear. So, where the mime fears disharmony, people pleasers fear rejection. And so, they’re going to withhold, they’re going to avoid difficult conversations, they’re going to go along to get along, but it’s all about I don’t want to be rejected. Right. So, they’re rooted in very, very different fears that are driving it, but behaviorally they can look very similar.

And then the last one we identified is the martyr. And martyrs fear dependency. And it can come in one of two forms. Either I don’t want to be dependent on another person because I don’t think they can do it as well as I can, or I don’t want to be a burden to them. I don’t want to appear selfish. Or it’s just the sense of like, I’m on my own, I can’t rely on anybody, they’re going to let me down, so I might as well do it myself. So, martyrs love to feel needed, they actually like doing stuff. They like feeling independent. They like feeling like they can help people out, but they deprioritize their own needs and feel like their needs don’t matter. So, then this resentment quietly brews beneath the surface.

And most people are running more than one faulty program, right? They’re running some kind of combination concert of several of these that intermix. One might be a compensation for another. And so, that’s what we’ve identified, and why that’s so critical is you can see how any one of these is going to create danger signals in the face of change. And so, if we don’t help people identify that inner operating system that’s being run by faulty programs, all of the different processes and methodologies and things that we put in place are going to be mediocre or short-lived at best until that inner operating system can support it.

Skot Waldron (20:54.00)
Thank you for running through those. Those are really good. I mean, I think that everybody listening could hear probably themselves in one of those, as to what’s going on, which is really interesting.

Now, thinking about us as leaders and walking into an element of change and a cultural shift of some kind and what we’re doing is oftentimes we try to fix it with systems. And I know that systems are very important. I think that your systems are the things that are going to sustain you when other things fall apart.

Dr. Rosie Ward (21:31.00)
100%.

Skot Waldron (21:32.00)
That the systems are part of the thing. But where is the line, do you think? Because you talk a lot about this in that we lead people like machines instead of like humans. And systems are, you know, machine like you need the humans to run the systems. But there’s a line here where we cross over into, we stop it we start ignoring these faulty programs and we just address them like machines. Right. Talk about that for a minute. Talk about your idea behind that.

Dr. Rosie Ward (22:10.00)
Yeah, well, I think systems are super critical. And here’s where systems and kind of individual development or we call it upgrading your faulty programming, how they need to intersect. So, there’s a saying in the world of coaching, you’ve probably heard it, that is you can’t take a changed person and put them into an unchanged environment and expect anything to be different.

So, what do we typically do? We’ll send leaders off to some leadership development program or course or whatever it is, and then we come back and wonder why things aren’t different because your systems are reinforcing old behaviors, right? From your reward and recognition systems to just how things are just. There’s so many different aspects of systems of how we operate, how we run our meetings, what the day-to-day modus operandi is in your organization that is intentionally or unintentionally reinforcing old ways of doing things, reinforcing old habits, if you will.

And so, what needs to happen is people need to be supported in doing the messy inner work to upgrade these inner operating systems. Then you layer on skills and tactics that they can hone once the operating system can support it. And then your systems need to reinforce that, reinforce the language, reinforce the tools, reinforce the new way of doing things. Because without that, people will inevitably start to fall back on old systems, old habits. It’s just, it is what it is.

But if you start to say, okay, we’re going to put in a new meeting structure and a new way of doing things and a new way of clocking in and all that type of stuff. And we have not done that upgrade work, then this is where people, they start going, my gosh, my team is getting all upset, and I don’t know how to deal with the drama. So now you have leaders that start saying, yeah, I know and appeasing them, especially if they have people pleaser or mind programs and doing that, well, HR is making me or “leadership” is making me, right? Because they want to be allies and friends with their team rather than supporting the change. And now you start to get this undercurrent of us versus them type of a thing.

So, that’s my kind of long-winded way of they need they need to work together. And a lot of times when you’re going through changes, you have to have both. You have to look at what are the minds, what’s the mindset work and upgrade work we need to do for people to have this feel more palatable and to move past kind of habitual behaviors that are working against them in this new environment. And everything from, you know how we go about sales, how we reward people, how we hire people, how we develop people, what’s your performance management system like, all of those things. What are they measuring and what are they reinforcing? And what are your kind of day-to-day practices and expectations that help people embed new behaviors that you want them to have?

Skot Waldron (24:55.00)
So, I hear you saying that you know we as leaders need to probably have a mindset change first before overall culture can actually change. Or do you believe that culture can change regardless of leadership behavior?

Dr. Rosie Ward (25:11.00)
No, culture and leadership go hand in hand. You look at all the data; you look at the work of Edgar Schein and all kinds of people. There’s so many studies about, you know, like swapping out leaders with different teams and seeing performance and culture shift and stuff.

You know, every interaction that a person has with a leader in the organization, and again, I don’t believe that leaders about a title or role, but let’s talk about formal leaders right now that have the title or the role, that every interaction somebody has with a leader reinforces their belief about the culture, reinforces their belief about whether or not they matter, reinforces. So, we always look at culture as culture at its core is really the underlying mindset of the organization anyway.

Like in the early work that we did, I always used to use a metaphor of a river that like climate and environment is everything you see on the surface and culture is when you step in and feel the current. It’s the underlying mindsets, beliefs, attitudes that shape behaviors, that shape how we do things around here. So, if you don’t do a collective kind of upgrade, if you will, of the mindset of leaders, I don’t know how a culture can shift in any meaningful way.

Skot Waldron (26:14.00)
Amen. When you look at organizations maybe that you’ve worked with or others in the past and you start to see, you know, you go into an organization, maybe it’s a kind of through been around for 70 years and they’ve done the same thing for the same way, 60 of those years. And you’ve got people that have worked there for 50 of those years, and they’re doing the stuff. Then you have the new blood come in. They’re like, wait, what’s going on? Wait, y’all still use fax machines. And it’s like this whole mindset shift within the environment.

And things I’ve seen in the past too is it’s really frustrating because you know people that have been there the longest and the systems that have established themselves there to reinforce that culture of this is how we do things can frustrate and almost extinguish the fire of some of the new blood that comes in that wants that change, that wants to see something ignited. And there’s such a small, they’re a minority, right? And I see this a lot in organizations. Can you speak to that? Like, is there any hope? Is there like how do you go in and help that mindset shift change to bring about cultural shift in something that’s like the Titanic?

Dr. Rosie Ward (27:37.00)
Yeah. Well, you know what’s interesting? I’m smiling as you say this because this is like one of our longest standing clients. When we started working with them, over a hundred-year-old client, employee owned, and it was this like one it started out with we need people to understand what it means to be employee owned and they have a very unique structure. But there’s a lot of people with 50-year tenure, 40-year, etc. And we have a culture survey that we don’t do with all clients, but when it makes sense, and for them, we started using our culture survey.

And one of the things we look at that is, you know, we look at the time it was who is Millennials and now Millennial, Gen Z, because we’re, you know, breaking out by age ban. And you start to see that there is this growing shift. And I want to say, you know, present day, almost 35% of their population is Millennial or Gen Z. And it’s only going to grow as people are retiring.

And so, we started kind of sound sounding the alarm of you’ve got this demographic gap, right? Of these other people that don’t want to change, don’t want to do stuff and you’ve got this younger group that is crying for change. And then when we started looking at you could call it new higher failure rate, but like looking at people who like within their first year or looking at the people who leave, it a lot of times is the younger generations who are like, screw this, right? They come in with energy, they come in excited about the culture, and then they’re like, WTF, I get to my respective location. And my leader is an older Gen X or Baby Boomer who’s like the antithesis of everything that I was just sold during the hiring process and everything that I was sold during new employee orientation. And this is not what I signed up for, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, they’re very real.

So, what we started doing with them was two things, system and individual development. Individual development, slowly but surely working through different leader groups, literally putting them through our eight-month coaching program that upgrades their inner operating system, that helps them understand their faulty program, that really does that mindset-based work, and then giving them very tactical, tangible tools and skills that they can apply around feedback and listening and all of the things that are critical from a leadership standpoint.

At the same time, we started looking at how do we change the language around your organization? How do we create a group of culture ambassadors to be that conduit of positive change, equipping them with tools to show up as leaders, even though they don’t have a formal role? How do we start to relook at your communication? How do we start to look at what is rewarded and measured in your performance review and performance management system? How many tries are you giving somebody before you finally let them go because they’re toxic to your culture?

Like we created guiding principles of leadership to go, this is what it actually means to be a leader here and this is what you’re held accountable to, and here’s the different reviews we’re going to have for leaders versus regular you know, the non-leadership employees, those types of things.

So, I think it’s a little bit of everything, but the key to them was really it was doing the mindset work and also creating an opportunity for employees to be a part of the change. So, this is the other thing where change goes wrong. And one of my favorite quotes is from Margaret Wheatley, and it’s something along the lines of people only support what they’ve helped to create.

So, with this particular client, one of the things that we did is we actually wrote about them in our previous book, Rehumanizing the Workplace. We called it, when a hundred-year-old company found their why. And we use the work from Simon Sinek, and we literally put all of their employees through these workshops of storytelling and helping them go, when have you been the most proud to work here? And extrapolated from that, from these various conversations, what their why is. And every single employee participated because the CEO said, “Wait, don’t you always say that people only support what they’ve helped to create. If we go off and roll out a purpose and roll out our why and roll out values and people weren’t part of it, they’re just going to push back.”

So, we did like this very broad, including everybody in the process to really define their purpose values and let that be an anchor of their culture. Mindset work with the leaders, ongoing reinforcement through structures, systems, this culture ambassador group, and then just ongoing measurement and whatnot. So, a little bit of everything, and it’s a journey. But here’s what I will tell you is that I remember them distinctly saying this, and we have them as a case study on our website, but their CEO was saying, you know, from 2010 to 2018, we were financially flat. And in 2018, since we’ve been on a steady growth, and they even had two record years during COVID and like a 35% increase in their share price a couple of years ago.

And I and I looked at him and I just started smiling. And I he’s like, “why are you smiling?” And I said, “when did your culture and leadership work start?” And he’s like, “the beginning of 2018”. Like, there you go. There’s your answer. I mean, it’s not an accident. You’ve been around for 100 years prior to this. You had 10 years stagnant. You started getting intentional and now you’ve seen this. Is it perfect? You’re going to have ups and downs. But if you look at the steady trajectory, you didn’t have those results until you got intentional about doing it in a very comprehensive way.

Skot Waldron (32:43.00)
That’s so cool. Yeah. You don’t always get to see those measurable, quantifiable results all the time. And I think that’s really cool that you got to measure that and see that growth and help them realize where that came from. That it was the investment they made in the culture and the way that they humanized their people to really bring them into the change and what they could see themselves as part of that growth and part of that trajectory.

I always, you know, when I’m doing values work with people, I’m always like, hold on. So, there’s five of you C-suite sitting in a room determining what the values are of this organization. Then you’re going to tell everybody what they are, right? And it’s like, hold on. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Dr. Rosie Ward (33:33.00)
And they wonder why people don’t feel connected to it or they’re just memorizing it. They, you know, it’s like becomes a check the box, yeah, here’s our values, but nobody knows what that means and nobody has internalized it and no one feels connected to it.

Skot Waldron (33:44.00)
And everyone’s like, well, those are your values. Those aren’t necessarily my values or the way I see us. And I think those values are all BS based on what I’ve seen, you know, in this organization anyway, you know. So, it’s a whole lot of that.

Well, there’s some exciting stuff going on in your world. Future-Proofing Leadership is out, your new book. And tell us a little bit about that, and where people can get a hold of it. But who’s it for and what are you tackling in there?

Dr. Rosie Ward (34:13.00)
Yeah, I mean, Future-Proofing Leadership, I will say that, you know, it’s really for anybody, truly, because we don’t believe that leadership is about a title or a role. So, anyone that wants to lead and influence positive change in their life, this is going to be for them. It’s broken really into three parts. The first part is really unpacking why change feels hard, the reality of the world we live in and what we get backwards around change. Also, talking about just what do we mean about being future-proofing. So, what is the data showing us about the generational collision and AI and all of that stuff. So, it’s really setting the context, kind of I call it normalizing our human experience and why things feel harder individually, collectively, as an organization, as a society.

Then part two is where we unpack each of those faulty programs. So, there’s actually a free faulty program discovery people can take that will tell you which ones are likely in the driver’s seat and how prevalent they are. And then each chapter unpacks the different faulty programs. There are QR codes that give you more resources like downloadable worksheets if you really want to dig in and do the work on the ones that particularly are prevalent for you.

And then part three of it pulls it together and looks at what does it mean to future-proof leadership from two vantage points. The first is organizationally. So that chapter is going to be for leaders, HR professionals, org development, anyone that is responsible for culture. So, if that’s not you, you could probably skip that chapter, although there’s probably some merit in there to have conversations internally and influence.

And then the last chapter before the conclusion is what are some key things that you can do to future-proof within yourself? So, giving you some of the core exercises that we use with our clients that we’ve been using for decades, that we come back to over and over because they’re helpful. What are some things that you can be thinking about? So that kind of wraps it all together.

So yeah, super excited. We got Amazon bestseller in all three categories. It was listed in within like two days of release, which is super cool. And so, it’s been fun to watch like various comments coming in of people saying, I thought I was reading a leadership book, but this is really like an inner work manual. And, you know, how they spent an hour unpacking one of the stories in there. And I feel really seen. And that’s what makes me really happy is I wanted people to normalize that you’re not alone, right? Like this is part of our shared human experience. There’s nothing wrong with you. And let’s talk about how you can move through it because there’s just so much self-judgment and head trash when we get stuck.

And I wanted to find a way to help people based on what we were seeing with our clients. So, I’m really excited about the reception so far and hope it continues to add value and help people, honestly.

Skot Waldron (36:50.00)
Awesome. Thanks for doing the good work. I think that’s awesome. And it’s fun having you on. It’s fun having your thoughts here because this has helped me learn some stuff and things I want to bring out. And I’ve had some aha moments just from listening to you. So yeah, thank you. That’s super cool, for me, if nobody else, I got some out of it, Rosie. So, thanks for hanging out with me. I appreciate it. And people want to find you, where do they go?

Dr. Rosie Ward (37:18.00)
Well, they can I’m on all the socials. You can find me on LinkedIn, Rosie Ward. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook, Dr. Rosie Ward. Or the easiest thing is honestly, go to our company website, salveopartners.com, and you can find me there.

drrosieward.com has links to all my socials. Any of those places you can find me. They link to one another. Would love to connect and chat more with people for sure. So, I appreciate you letting me geek out with you about all things change.

Skot Waldron (37:43.00)
You are such a geek. I love this so much. You’re so cool. All right. Well, I look forward to see you in the virtual hallways that we wander in together. And yeah, stay cool out there.

Dr. Rosie Ward (37:56.00)
Awesome. Thank you.

Skot Waldron (38:01.00)
There are stories we tell ourselves. And those stories, what I like to call is insert name, theater. So Skot Theater, Rosie Theater, Jim Theater, Karen Theater, whatever, is the thing that we make up, the play, the drama in our mind of the thing that’s going to happen if this takes place or if that takes place. Those stories we tell ourselves can hijack us in a lot of different moments.

They’re trying to keep us safe? We’re trying to stay safe in all the things that we do. So, we tell ourselves these stories to kind of keep us safe, to put up our guard or to be prepared or whatever. And it doesn’t always serve us very well. No, no, it doesn’t.

Those 7 different programs are quite interesting. Number one, the counterfeit. and then the fraud kind of goes with that. The overachiever, the perfectionist, the control freak, the mime, the people pleaser and the martyr. Which one of those resonates with you just a bit? At times, I will tell you honestly that I feel a little bit of a fraud. I’m going to just be straight up honest with y’all. When I see the people out there doing the work, my colleagues, my competitors, whatever you want to call them, like they do awesome stuff.

Like even having people like Rosie on the show, I sit there and go, wow. Like she is crushed. Like the way she talks about things and the way she addresses things and the authors out there doing stuff and the speakers out there doing stuff and all the places where I am, y’all, I feel a little bit inadequate sometimes. I’m just going to say it because you know, why not? I think y’all will appreciate that. I think that at times I feel that way.

Overachiever, no, that’s not necessarily me. I know where I am good at and I know where I stand and I think I do the thing, and I think I do it well. I’m a little bit of a people pleaser and some of the things I do. I can sense that a little bit too. I don’t like to ruffle too many feathers. But there’s some definite self-check going on here as I’m listening to Rosie and thinking about myself and some of the things I get in my own way of adapting to the change that needs to happen in my own life, my own business. I hope you took some of this to heart. It’s been very applicable to me.

Thank you, Rosie, for being here. And thank all of y’all for being here.

If you want to find out more information about me or check out the show notes where there’s going to be more information and links to the things referenced in this episode, visit skotwaldron.com. And lastly, I’m asking for a little bit of love, just a little bit. So please take a moment, follow, rate the show. The algorithm is like that; it helps me get the word out. I really appreciate it.

Thank you. And until next time, stay Unlocked.