Unlocking Change Through Mastering It With Barry Moltz

Hello, welcome to another episode of Unlocked. I'm Skot and today we're talking to Barry Moltz. Barry is a consultant, coach, mentor, expert when it comes to helping small businesses, particularly family owned businesses learn to thrive and learn to grow. And in particular in this interview we talk about change because he has just written a book, came out earlier this year on the topic of change called Change Masters. So you can find that right now. If you go and Google it or whatever you want to do, look for it in on Amazon. And so in this interview, we talk about his process so he is got a 20 step process for change.

We highlight some of those things and the idea of change and what holds us back from change. I love the topic of change because it is so relevant to everyone. So Barry is a small business expert. He's the author of seven books. He is a speaker and he also does a lot of consulting and coaching, like I said earlier. So pay attention to what Barry has to say in this interview. It is punchy. He's got some really good tips and he just delivers them, right? Delivers them one after another. So I'm looking forward to it. Here we go, Barry. Barry, it is so good to have you, man. Thanks for being on the show.

Barry Moltz:

Thanks for having me.

Skot Waldron:

So you have been in the world of family business for a long time in various ways. Not only having your own and kind of buying and selling and doing your own business type stuff and working in corporate but also now consulting and coaching and mentoring and whatever you want to say with other family owned businesses. How did you get here? What's your path been to land in the spot where you are in right now?

BARRY MOLTZ:

Well, my immediate answer is my path here has been 15 years. My own personal group therapy, that's how I got here. Want to help out family businesses. But I had my own businesses after leaving IBM, after 10 years. The first business, one out of business. The second business, I was kicked out by my two partners. And the third business, I was fortunate enough to sell. I was able to pay back the bank the $1.3 million I owed them. And then my wife tells me I got her back just about the same time.

So after that I did angel investing for about five years. Then since then, I really want to help small business owners get unstuck because a lot of small businesses, they get to a certain point but they don't get to the level of success that they hope to and they're usually stuck in one of few areas. And I also focus now on family business because the family dynamics actually really interest me because it is an extra challenge. If you've ever watched the TV show Succession, it's not quite as bad as that, but sometimes the dynamics are pretty bad.

SKOT WALDRON:

Yeah, I do some work with some attorneys here in Atlanta that work in the M&A space and also some family planning and doing things like that. So we talk a lot about estate planning, we talk about M&A stuff and yeah, it's like they talk about that dynamic a lot and the problems that can come about if you're not prepared or proactive about putting safeguards in place or boundaries in place or whatever. So dive into that, what are the biggest issues you see in that space? And we'll get to the idea of change a bit because you have a new book that's out as well and I want to pivot into that. So keeping that in mind, talk about the family dynamic real quick and some of the pitfalls that are happening.

BARRY MOLTZ:

Sure. I mean, I think one of the biggest pitfalls is that a lot of people don't think that family business is personal. I know in one of the episodes of Succession, one of the characters says to his brother, says, "Listen, it's not personal, man." And it is personal because you've known these people your whole life. So the personal, all the baggage from years and years ago does get in the way. One of the biggest mistakes that family businesses make, Skot, is that they don't decide on what roles each person in the family business is going to take and how difficult decisions are going to be made. If you can decide who's going to do what and how difficult decisions will be made, then your 80% of the way there.

SKOT WALDRON:

Okay. And what is the potential downfall of not doing these things? What have you seen happen out there?

BARRY MOLTZ:

Well, the potential downfall first of is none of your family holidays are any fun, right? That's always, you're talking about even if everyone shows up. And the other part is it really is destructive to the business. I mean, folks inside your business that aren't your family members, they don't want to see family members fighting, not getting along. And eventually it hurts the business so much that the culture is bad and the customers will stop coming. So it really can be the downfall of their company.

SKOT WALDRON:

Yeah, well said. And not to mention burning those bridges that you've had these bonds for your entire life with these family members and then all of a sudden something happens and money gets in the way and feelings get hurt and all kinds of stuff happens.

BARRY MOLTZ:

I've seen, I've been in rooms where there've been physical altercations, people going at each other. I mean, there was one where guy went across the other guy, he was on the other side of the couch, the couch falls down and breaks his cousin's leg. So I mean, it just can get really crazy because it is personal.

SKOT WALDRON:

Yeah, it totally is. Totally is. So now you're consulting, you're coaching, you're mentoring these businesses through their things. What is the main thing that you're focusing on right now when it comes to that? What are most people coming to you for and how are you addressing those things?

BARRY MOLTZ:

And when it comes to family, business, people come, they say, "Listen, my business is a mess. We don't get along. We don't know if we want to sell the business. We don't know if we want to pass it down to the children. Nothing is really getting done. We don't have any fun at our family events anymore. We're just fighting all the time and as a result, the business is dying. What can you do to help?"

So I take them through different kinds of things. As I said before, we have to like, "Well, first of all, where do you want the business to go? Do you want to sell it or do you want to pass it along to the children? How do you want to preserve that wealth that you put together?" The second thing is I ask them, "How are decisions made? What kind of group do you get together? Is there one leader that makes the final decision? Or do people just keep arguing all the time and nothing gets done?" So I try to put in place job descriptions, some kind of decision making body and usually one single leader that will be the tiebreaker so things can move forward.

SKOT WALDRON:

That tiebreaking vote, have some thick skin to be that person.

BARRY MOLTZ:

Yeah, a lot of people think they want to take that role, or they get it, they don't always want it.

SKOT WALDRON:

Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine that. So let's talk about that. So we've got a foundation of what you do and how you do it. You speak, you do a lot of other things with organizations and the communities and whatever that you serve. So let's talk a little bit about your book. Introduce us to the book and why did you write the book? How does that correlate with what you're doing with the business side of things?

BARRY MOLTZ:

So a lot of people bring me into their small business because they want to make some kind of change. So we talk about where's the pain? Why do you want to make the change? What change you want to make? Here's an action plan to actually make that change that's going to get to your goal, whether it's more profit or family harmony, whatever it is. And then what I found was that in 80% of the cases, once I leave, nothing ever happens. So I got to thinking why is change, even despite people's best intentions, why is it so hard for people to make and how can I help them actually make the changes they know they need to make? I'm not trying to convince people that they should make changes in their business. I'm trying to help people that know they have to make the change, but they've had the inability to enact that change.

So that's what the book goes through. It's a 20 step process. Of course, Skot, there's always a 10 step process or a 20 step process or a 15 step process to really go through it. So that was really what the goal was for the book. And one of the things I found out in the research is the reason that people have a hard time making change, it's not really your fault, it's in your biology. Your brain is a pattern making machine and if you've been alive and you're fairly well fed, it wants you to keep doing the same thing over and over again and it doesn't want you to make that change. So your brain actually fights against you all the way.

SKOT WALDRON:

Yes, it does. And let me ask you, I mean, you've got your 20 step process. I have to ask you this, do you also have a Venn diagram that you've created?

BARRY MOLTZ:

No Venn diagram but that would've been a great idea.

SKOT WALDRON:

You do-

BARRY MOLTZ:

That would've been a great idea, Skot.

SKOT WALDRON:

Get on the Venn diagram. That's your next step of evolution, right?

BARRY MOLTZ:

That's right, exactly. That's the next change.

SKOT WALDRON:

Yeah, that's it. I've created a few Venn diagrams in my career. I haven't written the book yet, so you got me on that one. I got to get the book thing going. So-

BARRY MOLTZ:

Everyone's got at least one book inside of them, Skot. Remember that?

SKOT WALDRON:

That's right. Oh, I do. I have many books inside of me, it's just getting them out is the problem. So here's the thing, you are helping people not understand that things need to change, they already know that, but it's how to change. Because I've talked about change with different organizations and things in the past as well and it always comes down to that mantra of nothing's going to change until the discomfort of the change-

BARRY MOLTZ:

Absolutely.

SKOT WALDRON:

Exceeds the discomfort of your current situation.

BARRY MOLTZ:

Absolutely. People only change when they're in so much pain that they can't stay where they are and they're willing to go off into the unknown and not know what's going to happen. That's the only time. I always say that people only buy when they have pain and the money to solve the pain. While in change, you got to have a lot of pain to stay or you don't, I mean, pain to change or you don't do anything. I mean, think about all the people that stay in relationships, whether business or personal, that just don't work anymore, right? Because the pain isn't that great. So I always focus on what is going to make you change. And I have to tell you, sometimes when I help family businesses, we're not able to get anywhere because the pain isn't that great. So they just keep doing what they've been doing no matter how dysfunctional it is for a long time.

SKOT WALDRON:

That's right. They sit there and they look at you and they go, "Yeah, what we're doing-"

BARRY MOLTZ:

And they're paying you because... The other thing is people think that just because they pay for advice or they pay to make a change will actually make a change. But just paying for it doesn't mean you've actually done it.

SKOT WALDRON:

Yeah, that's true too. Just because I bought the hamburger doesn't mean I actually ate it. But yeah, I think that's so relevant when they're like, listen, Barry, we hear you, but that sounds like a lot of work and that sounds like a lot of time and I think we're just going to deal with our current pain right now. Right? And it's that cost benefit of what is it going to take to get me to move over here?

BARRY MOLTZ:

And then you go back to what Albert Einstein said, the definition of, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results." So people say, "Well, we'll just try again." Well, no, nothing's going to change.

SKOT WALDRON:

Yeah, it might change for a week and then it's going to come back. And I'm sure you've experienced that. And I ran a design agency for a number of years and it was that. I'd come to them and pitch something and they'd say, "Yeah, that seems kind of pricey. We're just going to go over here and do this." And it's like, "Well, that's what you've been doing and you're not happy about it. That's why you come to me in the first place. And now you're going to go back to that." And then oftentimes they do come back because it does pain. The pain is there and it resurfaces.

So run me through a few things in your book. What are some key highlights to help this change thing? Because we all know the only guarantee is that things are going to change and we have to learn to move with that change as opposed to fight against the change. And I talk about it from a personality standpoint of how to get buy-in from different personalities about change. But walk me through a couple of things in your book that you highlight as things that really help drive change in a healthy way.

BARRY MOLTZ:

So one of the things is to really understand the pain, why you can't stay where you are? If you can articulate that, there's more of a chance of me moving to something else. The second thing is to try to pick a starting point to make the change. Sometimes people have a difficult time making a change, Skot, because that initial change is just too big. So I always talk about patient iterative steps. So for example, if someone says, "Well, I don't review my financial statements every single month." Well, the change to make isn't to review your financial statements every single month. The first change is to, okay, can you get the financial statement from your bookkeeper or your accountant and can you check what the sales were for last month? So just start something very small. And then the other thing is, if you can have an accountability coach, someone that will actually stick whatever doing, you have more of a chance.

So studies show that if you declare you're going to go do something to someone and they check back in with you, there's more of a chance you'll actually do it. So those are just a handful of steps that really going to help you make the change. And then finally, if you're able to make those small changes at each small change, provide yourself with some reward. We gave up a long time ago, unfortunately when we were children, we don't get ribbons or medals or any of those things anymore. Do something that you're going to get a reward if you achieve that small change. Now personally for me, French fries is really my drug of choice so that's what I reward myself with.

SKOT WALDRON:

Wow, French fries, that is a good one. Is there any particular French fry that you enjoy?

BARRY MOLTZ:

No, I'm usually a purist, just salt. But every once in a while I'll go a sweet potato fry, but I usually just like the general French fries. Getting brought up on McDonald's so that's the way it is.

SKOT WALDRON:

Okay. All right. Yeah, McDonald's does not have sweet potato fries.

BARRY MOLTZ:

Oh, they have sweet potato fries now?

SKOT WALDRON:

No. I'm saying they do not have sweet potato fries.

BARRY MOLTZ:

Do not have... So that's right. Exactly.

SKOT WALDRON:

So that's something you're going to have to wait for, I think when they upgrade their menu. So understand the pain, pick a starting point, accountability coach and some kind of reward-

BARRY MOLTZ:

Reward yourself.

SKOT WALDRON:

And recognition. So you know what? My brain's turn in a little bit here and I look at these steps and I sit there and I go, this is exactly what I talk about with people with when I'm coaching them about leadership and coaching them about communication with other people on their teams is understand what's going on. What's the pain that you guys are going through? Let's pick one thing that we can work on right now. Who's the accountability coach? Well that could be me, that could be somebody else in your office. That could be whoever. And then what's there to celebrate? There are people in this world that are really good at the celebration point and piece and there's others that are not.

BARRY MOLTZ:

Right, there's some people that just mourn when things go wrong. When things go right, they don't pause to celebrate. I think that's a problem in our society.

SKOT WALDRON:

A 100%. And the more I talk with people, I also noticed that we tend to focus on the 10% that didn't go so well, instead the 90% that did. And that's this era of perfectionism and high expectation whether it's put on our ourselves or whether it's put on us by somebody else and I think that can hinder that celebration piece. So I really like these. How's the book set up? Is it set up, you've got 20 steps, 20 chapters, is that how it's built out? Is kind of how to help me work through that process?

BARRY MOLTZ:

The way the book is set up, it really talks about, well, how did I get to write a book on change? And then the changes that I've had to struggle with in my own personal life and then the science behind why it's hard to make a change. And then the science behind people who are successful making changes. And then it goes through, here's the 20 steps and then how do you make a change if you want to make a change in sales and marketing? How do you make a change if you want to make a change in leadership management or in personal communication or productivity or customer experience? And so that's really how it's set up. And my wife still hasn't read any of my books. I say at the very beginning of, it's a funny story. When I was first testing out this 20 steps to change, I gave it out to a bunch of people to see how it worked.

And so I gave it to my wife and I said, "Honey, will you fill out these 20 steps of change? And the first question is, what change do you want to make?" And she looks it up. She goes, "I don't have to make any changes. I don't have to do this." I go, "Oh, okay." 'Cause she hasn't read any of my books and at the beginning of the book I say, "I hope my wife will make a change and read one of my books." And so now people email me, say, "Has your wife ever read your book?" So-

SKOT WALDRON:

That's awesome.

BARRY MOLTZ:

Some people have a hard time with change.

SKOT WALDRON:

Yeah, that is true. How do you feel about that, Barry? How do you feel about-

BARRY MOLTZ:

I'm totally good. She says to me, "I live with you. I don't have to read your books. I hear this stuff all the time." So-

SKOT WALDRON:

Amen.

BARRY MOLTZ:

When my kids were young, they used to be able to perform my speeches and it was really fun to watch them do me.

SKOT WALDRON:

Really? That's cool. Yeah, my wife will say, "I don't need a coach right now."

BARRY MOLTZ:

That's right, exactly.

SKOT WALDRON:

"I need a husband. I don't need you to coach me, I just need a husband." Right. So I'm just like, okay, fair enough. Let me turn that off. It's hard. We do it all day, so it's tough. Okay, so you said in the book you write about some change that was hard for you to make that sparked this. So what was that? Do you mind me asking?

BARRY MOLTZ:

Yeah, no, I mean, I've read about many of them. One I had been doing until I retired last year, I've been doing Seito Karate for 20 years, was able to get up to third degree black belt. And part of the art that was very difficult for me was the sparring, the fighting part, because I had a lot of fear around it. I initially had gotten hurt when I had fought. And so I really had to learn to go out there and show up and to really fight. And one of the things that I really learned was it was okay to be afraid, but then to go do it anyway. So we have this whole thing in our culture where failure's not an option that we shouldn't be afraid. And so what I was taught was it's okay to be afraid. That saying that goes, we're never going to make those butterflies in our stomach go away, but we can teach them the fly in formation.

And so that's what I try to teach people. I understand you're afraid to make this change. It's okay to be afraid, but let's take that first step and do it anyways. And my first step was just showing up for sparring class. That was the hardest thing, just to step on the floor and do what you do to protect yourself. I started wearing protection beneath my uniform in case I actually missed the block or I missed, I got kicked or something like that. So it wouldn't hurt so much. So that's one of the changes I had to make.

SKOT WALDRON:

And so then as you sparred more and more, what did that do? Did that help you overcome or work through that fear a little bit more? I mean, is it still super present and regardless of how much you've sparred?

BARRY MOLTZ:

Well, I think the fear is still always there, but it got easier to show up and it got easy to realize that I would be able to make it through class. But the fear was always there. I mean, before the pandemic, I used to speak in front of a lot of people. And when right before I'd get on stage, I'd always have that little nervousness thing. And that wasn't bad because I could use the nervousness to try to drive my energy. At the beginning of all of my speeches, I would say the same two or three sentences. And when people laughed, I knew I had them. So again, I don't think the fear ever really goes away. It's just to make friends with it in order to make that change.

SKOT WALDRON:

Make friends with it. Yes. And I was working with another client of mine who was working on his speaking career and doing things and he focused a lot on fear and that idea of fear and he flies a private plane and was like, it's scary. It can be scary at times, being in that type of environment and having things go wrong and there's unpredictable things all the time but it's not overcoming fear, it's working through the fear. And then like you said, accepting the fear and making friends with the fear because it's not going away. And to deny that is, I think, the wrong approach.

BARRY MOLTZ:

I don't like those shirts to say no fear, fearless, those kind of things. So I think it's just a bunch of crap. I think most people who are heroic and show courage, the reason you have to show courage is because you had fear. That's where courage comes from. If you didn't have fear, you wouldn't need to show courage.

SKOT WALDRON:

There you go. Good stuff. Okay, so moving on to, you mentioned another thing. Can you talk about the science a little bit more of fear? I'm personally interested. I imagine other people would be too.

BARRY MOLTZ:

Well, the science really have changed. That's really what we've studied.

SKOT WALDRON:

Oh, changed, sorry. Science of changes.

BARRY MOLTZ:

And again, your brain is a pattern making machine. Its whole goal, Skot, is really just to survive. So if you've survived this long doing a certain set of patterns, then it wants you to keep doing that. Also, as our brains age, our brains get lazy. We want to keep doing the same thing over and over again again 'cause it's less work for our brains. I mean, think about when we used to commute to offices all the time. I know when I used to drive 45 minutes to the office, I'd get in the car and all of a sudden I was at the office, I didn't even know how I got there because your brain was on autopilot.

Take a different route to the office, your brain's going to have to think a lot more. And quite honestly, it doesn't really want to do that. So it'd rather you keep doing the same thing over and over again. And change also brings fear. That fight or flight kind of response, your brain doesn't really like that. So we're trained to keep doing the same thing over and over again. That's how biology has really bred us so we have to get over that.

SKOT WALDRON:

And so are there certain methods or techniques that we can use to work through that piece?

BARRY MOLTZ:

Yeah, that's really where the small changes come from. You can almost trick your brain into doing something very small to make a small change. And as you keep doing that very small change over and over and over again, your brain finally accepts it as something that's very common. How I got this whole idea of change also many years ago is I took meditation from a Zen Buddhist monk and he would teach us to meditate for a minute. And then after six months I said, "Well, I think I have this thing down to meditate for a minute. What's the advanced stage of meditation?" He goes, "Okay, why don't you meditate for a minute and five seconds?" And so in America, we want to take these giant leaps, we want to make these big changes, we want to make these huge statements. And the key thing really is take these patient iterative steps so they become habits so your brain accepts it and becomes comfortable with it. If we keep doing the same thing over and over again, obviously it becomes a habit. And so we can keep doing it.

SKOT WALDRON:

Yeah. And that brings me back to James Clear in Atomic Habits, the process of how do we go from just focusing on the outcome all the time and focusing more on the type of person we want to become? And how do we create these micro movements and micro things in our lives that enable that change to actually take hold? So whether it's setting your workout clothes out the night before and putting them on the floor when you step out of bed and they're right there. And he always tells that story of that one guy that drives to the parking lot of the gym, didn't never go in, but just made a habit of actually driving into the parking lot. And then eventually he would go in for five minutes and then leave. And it was just those micro movements of enacting change. And I think that's kind of what you're getting at, yeah.

BARRY MOLTZ:

That's why I like clothes for different kinds of sports. I'm a big hiker, I'm a big cyclist and I always have hiking clothes and I always have cycling clothes because it gets me ready to do whatever the activity is, it puts you in that mindset. It's kind of like when I was doing Karate, when I put on the gi, when I stepped on the floor, then it gets you ready. So I think those things are important.

SKOT WALDRON:

Yeah. Yep, I agree. So here at the end of day change is necessary. It's going to happen all the time. It's inevitable. And again, I talked to a lot of people about personality of change and some people are gung ho, a 100 miles an hour, let's change everything every day all the time. And then you've got the other side of change where they're the pump the brakes people. They're like, "Whoa. Wait a second. Hold up. Last time this happened, I got burned." Or they got burned or we got burned. "And last time that happened, you are doing change to me as opposed to doing change with me. I just feel bulldozed by your change and you're doing this and we're doing..." And so there's all this conflict. Do you see that come up in the work you do?

BARRY MOLTZ:

Yeah, I think that if as a leader, if you do too many changes, the change of the week, people are like, "What? Why should I make this change because next week it's going to be something else." And if you really want people to change, you have to make sure what is in it for them if they change. Why is this new way of doing it going to help them do their job better or make them more money or make them more satisfied or whatever it is? Understanding that the brain wants to keep doing the same thing over and over again, too much change is no good either because then it's just oh, it's just whiplash, right? It's just confusion.

SKOT WALDRON:

Yeah. What's in it for them? So selling people on the change based on the way they view the world and the way that they value the things that they value in life. Right?

BARRY MOLTZ:

Or if you can put a new process in or a new piece of software in, I want to put a customer relationship management system and I want the salespeople to use it. Well, why should they use it? What's the benefit for them? How is it going to enable them to form tighter relationships with their customers and make more sales? That's really what you have to focus in on. Not because "I want you to do this so I know what's going on." That's not the reason for people to change so I can track you.

SKOT WALDRON:

Yeah, exactly. Is there just a key point of change that you love to leave everybody with? Here at the end, wrapping up here, what's the thing about change that you want to drive into? Every entrepreneur, every person that owns a business, anybody that's part of a small business in the space that you're in, what do you want to drive home?

BARRY MOLTZ:

Well, I always say that overnight success takes seven to 10 years. And that successful change is really a series of very small, patient interrupt steps. It's not these giant leaps, it's making a small change. Whatever period of time you want to measure it over, a week, a month, it's really a series of those that get to where you want to go. So that's really what it is. We have to be more patient with the changes we want to make and don't think it's all going to happen in one day.

SKOT WALDRON:

Patience. You mean I got to wait for stuff.

BARRY MOLTZ:

It's very [inaudible 00:29:32]. What can we say?

SKOT WALDRON:

It's so miserable waiting for things all the time because Amazon Prime can just send me stuff right now.

BARRY MOLTZ:

Well and I knew I had seen the apocalypse, Skot, when Amazon Prime could deliver in two days. I knew that the world was ending right then in 2020.

SKOT WALDRON:

That is true. Yeah, I won't even buy stuff if it says it's like going to ship to me in five days. I'm like, "Ugh, that's gross."

BARRY MOLTZ:

That's right. Exactly.

SKOT WALDRON:

That's gross. Well, I appreciate you, Barry. This is really good. I love this topic of change. I love that I got some of your insights because I learned something that has really helped me think about what I talk about more so that insight's really good. Now people want to talk to you. Who do you want to talk to in this space and why and how should they contact you?

BARRY MOLTZ:

Yeah, I mean anybody that is in pain, anybody that wants to change, any small business owners that really needs some help, they should contact me at my website www.barrymoltz.com. M-O-L-T-Z.com or I'm Barry Moltz and all the social media apps except for, I don't do TikTok. So, yeah, just contact me there if I can help you in any way and try to pay it forward.

SKOT WALDRON:

Great, Barry. And I hope you're speaking stuff continues to rock and you continue to get some exposure out there 'cause I think you have a good message. So I appreciate you.

BARRY MOLTZ:

Thanks, Skot. Thanks for having me.

SKOT WALDRON:

Why does change have to be so hard? Well, it's because of our genetics. The thing is that we are adverse to change because it's scary and we don't like to be scared and we don't like to be uncomfortable and all those other things that go hand in hand with change. So when we're thinking about change, thinking about, he listed a few ideas here. So understanding the pain, so identifying the pain, we call it, or I call it taming the beast, right? We got to name it to tame it. And then picking a starting point. So picking something easy where we can just start, just something micro that get us involved and get us engaged in going. An accountability coach or an accountability partner, somebody that's also wanting change that has skin in the game so you guys can be accountable to each other.

And then finally celebrate. So these four steps, there's again 20 of them but he highlighted these four. So celebrate, make sure the celebration is happening because again, we don't do it enough. I am very guilty of that. I have made a mental note and I'm trying to be more intentional about the celebration because it goes a long way. So think about that. Think about how you can drive change in a healthy way. There's unhealthy change and there's healthy change.

So you can be proactive change and you can be reactive change, proactive, reactive. Those aren't good or bad, they just are. But identifying that change and what needs to happen is crucial. So thanks a lot, Barry, for being on the show. If y'all want to find out more about me, you can go to skotwaldron.com. I've got all my episodes, I've got more about my speaking gigs there and also you can find some free resources for you. Connect with me on LinkedIn. I post a ton of stuff there. And then finally like, subscribe, comment on YouTube and find out more stuff about that. I've got some leadership and some team communication resources that are there for free for you that you can engage with right now. So thanks a lot. I'll see you next time on another episode of Unlocked.

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