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Skot Waldron:
Hi, welcome to another episode of Unlocked, where we talk about unlocking the potential of people in order to unlock the potential of our organizations. I'm Skot Waldron. Today, I've got Mark Polymeropoulos on the call. He is a retired CIA agent.
After 26 years of serving in the CIA, he has now written a new book called Clarity in Crisis that talks about leadership principles he learned while serving in the CIA and being under very, I would say, intense situations to where he had to learn how to bring clarity inside of crisis and how that applies to us as leaders.
And we talk about those principles a lot in this interview, he tells some stories in this interview which are super impactful, and we start to learn a little bit more about how his experience in the CIA can help us as entrepreneurs, us as corporate leaders, and us as people to just understand what needs to happen when we are going through crisis and how to make sure we're making the right decisions.
Mark is the recipient of the Distinguished Career Intelligence Medal, the Distinguished Intelligence medal, the Intelligence Medal of Merit, the Intelligence Commendation Metal, and his last position at the CIA was overseeing clandestine operations in Europe and Eurasia. He has served in Afghanistan. He has served in Iraq. He has been all over the world in that area doing different things for us, for our country, and we're grateful to him for that. So let's get on with this interview. Thanks, everybody.
Mark, I am super excited to have you here. I have honestly never had a CIA agent, a former CIA agent, I must say, I guess, on the call. So hey, thanks for being here.
Mark Polymeropoulos:
Hey, it's great to be here. Yeah, if I was still in the line of work, I wouldn't be allowed to come on, so it's only in retirement.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yes. Okay, cool, cool. I was hoping that maybe this was something special just for me, but no, okay. I gotcha. I gotcha.
Again, excited to have you. You just launched your book, Clarity in Crisis, and I am really interested in this. I mean the angle of coming from the CIA into leadership principles. That makes sense, right? You're definitely going to learn some leadership principles, but you don't hear about it very often. So give us a little bit of background on the CIA world, 26 years in the CIA, and how that was like, "Hold on a second. I need to write a leadership book." How did that transition happen?
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
So I worked for 26 years in CIA. I retired from the senior intelligence service in July of 2019. And as I looked back and I went into retirement, I really thought about some of the things, how I had grown, particularly as a leader. And so, so much of my career and so much what I thought had happened was dealing with failure and adversity, because it's CIA. And one of the things where I think people are going to be really interested in the book and it's based on the title, Clarity in Crisis, we deal in the gray. We deal in times of ambiguity when situations are hard. So it's really easy to lead if the market's good, for example, in the private sector or in the world of military special operations intelligence, if there's peace. But we deal in the gray, and what I found over a lot of failure, a lot of adversity is I perfected a method of how you can be in that happy place in the gray. There's a fire burning and you want to run to the fire. And you're comfortable in times where there's a lack of situational awareness.
And it was just interesting to me, by the end of my career, that was me. And so I thought, "Hey, I want to write a book about this and teach the American public, or the world, on some of these principles, because I think it could really help out in people in the private sector, in people's everyday lives. So I think this will really resonate. I'm really excited about it.
SKOT WALDRON:
So you do not receive leadership training in the CIA, I understand. Is that correct?
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
Right. So we're a little different than the US military. So US military, if you retire as a Colonel, after 20 years, you'll have gone through two years, one year each, going to separate leadership schools. At CIA, we don't. And that's not a good thing. We have some leadership training, but it might be a week every couple of years. So that's not good. And so maybe they'll take my book and start teaching it, back inside Langley.
But everything I did, I learned on the streets of the third world. I never served in Paris or Berlin or London. I was serving in kind of the hotspots in the Middle East. I did almost three years in our war zones in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. And so everything I learned was from going through some tough times. But you're right that unfortunately they don't teach leadership at CIA. Although I will tell you, they've asked me to come back and talk to incoming officers now about leadership. So maybe the tide is turning. I hope so.
SKOT WALDRON:
That's fantastic. And I was speaking to somebody in education about this a while ago as well, that leadership is one of the most under-taught, undervalued principles ... or I guess I would have to spin that around and say one of the most over-valued things that we need to understand in the corporate world or just in leading people, that is not taught in high schools and sometimes not even taught in college, unless we elect into certain things like that, right? We go into the corporate world, we go into business, we go into our lives of service, not understanding leadership. And then it's not even that taught once we get in there, as in your experience. And there's such a gap there that's happening. So what is the potential harm that's being done, even in your experience, for not having that training beforehand, now going into the CIA?
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
Skot, what a great question. Because, as I talk about in my book, I became a really good leader by the end of my career, after going through a lot of failure, a lot of times of adversity, and I don't want to be too dramatic on this, but in my world of intelligence that was, you know, people died. So when I was handling an agent ... an agent is someone who we recruit as a spy to help the United States. So I was a CIA officer; an agent is a foreigner, who's a spy. And sometimes I made mistakes and these people perished and that will always weigh on me, just the same as there's officers who I have led under my command, who have died in the line of duty. And so, boy, it would've been a lot more helpful not to go through that adversity.
Now I talk about my principles, and one of my principles is adversity is the performance-enhancing drug to success, meaning you have to fail to then learn and then succeed. And I have a lot of examples from the special operations and intelligence world. But hey, it would have been a lot better not to have to go through all that I did and become a really good leader by the end of my career.
And I'll tell you, the one thing that I wish we would teach kids in school are leadership principles. Now I will say that, having two kids who played sports growing up, I think on the sports field is where ... you know, an external activity outside of school ... you can learn those principles. But boy, I mean, maybe I'll go back to be a high school teacher and teach leadership. I think that would be awesome. That would be good for the country. That'd be good for everyone.
SKOT WALDRON:
You're so right. I mean, you're right. That sports field, that's where I learned it. And there's clubs and extracurricular activities where kids definitely learn it, but as a curriculum it's just missed. And that's so interesting to think about.
So leadership in the CIA versus leadership in corporations. Corporate people listen to this show and they're saying, "Well, what's this guy in the CIA going to teach me about leadership?" Right? So tell me about the differences between leading in one or the other. And then what's a guy like you going to teach a guy like me in corporate?
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
Sure. So here's one of the really interesting things about CIA officers, and I think it'll resonate in the corporate world, but even more so particularly with entrepreneurs. And I'll tell you why. So in CIA, as an operations officer, I had to work alone. So while we work in teams, essentially my job as an operations officer, I would go out at night and maybe I would meet an agent. And that means I'd have to run a surveillance detection route. And at some point along the way, I have to make a determination if someone's following me or not. And if I make the wrong call, someone can die. So you were kind of ingrained in making these decisions on your own. And I think that's really important because you gain that confidence over time. It's a muscle you build on how to train yourself to do that.
And so I think, entrepreneurs do the same thing. It's a lot of risk-taking and making decisions, perhaps not with a lot of people behind you, giving you advice. And so in the principles in the book, I talk about how to get to that place, how do we embrace that ambiguity with no fear. Just like an entrepreneur would have to, this is exactly what a CIA operations officer would have to do. And one of the things in the book that ... I have nine principles. This is not going to be taught in a Harvard MBA program. It should be, but I don't think it will. But I think people will understand it, because it's about building teams. It's about developing your people. It's about learning from failure.
And the one key point too, is, just like in the business world, you have to have confidence. One of the traits that I had as a CIA officer, and it's one of the best traits, is have a little bit of humility. And humility, I think, is something that's a powerful trait to have. You can't believe your own hype. It doesn't mean you're not aggressive or moving forward, but it's something that I think will really resonate, because that's just a real kind of emotion that everyone has. I'm not the guy who's going to come out, or the gal who's going to come out, thumping my chest.
And I joke about all my friends who are Navy SEALs, when they went through BUD/S training, they've got their book deal to write their book. And I love these guys. That's not me, though. I think mine is much more real-world, talking about dealing with failure, moving forward, and again, operating on your own and making decisions when times are tough.
SKOT WALDRON:
That's really powerful. You said the word fear, and you mentioned lead in making decisions without fear. Tell me about your concept of fear. I had another gentleman on the show who talks about fear quite a bit. And I'd like to hear your angle on fear and how that played into your life in the CIA and how that plays into that transition of life and leadership, and what's fear have to do with that. And how much should we embrace it? How much should we go through it? What's that fear word mean to you?
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
So let's clear up a misconception that fear to me is not physical fear. It's not danger. Because I had that and I had that all the time. That's totally different. You're going to have that no matter what. If you're in a war zone, if you're in Iraq and Afghanistan, it's okay to have that. The fear, the kind that I talk about, leading in times of adversity and having no fear, is just daring to fail. So we are going to fail in life. That's okay. But you don't want to have an overall concept of failure. So fear for me, or overcoming fear, is just having the ability to make decisions and lead in the gray, and that's your happy place. It's okay.
Now you're going to make a decision in times of ambiguity, in times of lack of situational awareness. Sometimes it's going to be the wrong decision, but you have to just not be worried because if you follow select principles and you have a foundation in which you made that decision, when you go back and you do an after-action report, whether it's in the military special operations intelligence, or in the private sector, in the business community, excuse me, you'll know that you had these foundations. And sometimes it's not going to work out, but that's okay because you went through these processes. And so having no fear is really important.
There's no way ... Whether you're in the intelligence or a special operations business or an entrepreneur or in the business community, you have to be able to take risks. That's how we grow as a people, a business, and institutions. I guess one of the ways I would look at it is just, it's smart, managed, aggressive risk. And that's really what "no fear" means, at least in my world. And I think that people really understand that.
SKOT WALDRON:
Smart, managed, aggressive risk. So that's super relevant for us as business owners, for us as entrepreneurs, for us in the corporate world. How do we understand that risk exists, you're not going to get rid of it, but use it to be smart, manage it well, and then be confident and aggressive, and using that to your advantage? I love that. That's really powerful stuff.
So clarity in crisis. We're all going to go through crisis, at some point. You lived crisis for 26 years and learned how to gain clarity in crisis. During crisis, people are stressed. People start to not think straight, potential bad things happen, but you talk about Clarity in Crisis is the name of your book. So talk about that principle of clarity in crisis. Why'd you name the book that and what does the book talk about in understanding how to get through that crisis with clarity?
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
So it's a fantastic question, because if you go through these nine principles, when there's that time where there's chaos all around you, and I'll give you a perfect example in a second, when there's a time when there's chaos all around you and people are looking at you to lead, to make a decision, you're actually comfortable, you're happy there, and you want that. And that's what I found at the end of my career. Here's an example I give, and this is the last leadership principle in the book, which I call finding clarity in the shadows. It's putting all the principles together, but it's based on a real-world operation.
So I was a base chief in Afghanistan about 10 years ago. And I was back in the United States on an R&R, you know, rest and relaxation. But my team had been tracking a high-value target. And I was back at CIA headquarters and they were trying to make a decision on what to do. Do we try to capture this high-value target? It was a Taliban member. Maybe we try to capture them, or maybe even more so, call in a US military airstrike. And the weather was down, so the lack of situational awareness was incredible. And so individuals in leadership positions in CIA, they knew I was the base chief, and they called me to a special operations center and they said, "What do we do?" And I said, "Easy. We go through with it." And they said, "How can you do that? We have no idea what's going on." And I'm like, "Well, actually we do, because ... " And I went through a step-by-step process. And I'll just go through this really quickly with you.
So, number one, one of my principals was the glue guy or the glue gal. That means they're indispensable members of the team that you've identified that are not on the tip of the spear, but are kind of the foundations of a successful unit. Well, we had that. So I knew that my guys and gals on the ground had done all the legwork and the homework to get to a point where they're recommending we go through with the operation, right there. Perfect.
Number two, I talk about being a people developer. So I wasn't the base chief there, but my deputy and others were there. And over the year when I was with them, I had let them lead. I'd let them lead in times where I was gone. So if I'd have to go for two or three days to another village, I would say, "The base is yours right now." And they'd say, "Hey, boss. We'll wait to make any decisions." I said, "No way. The second I get in the helicopter, this thing is yours." So I knew that, even though I wasn't there, I developed people on the ground to be good leaders. So ultimately when it was time to make that call, and when the senior leadership of the agency was looking at me, I said, "This is easy. We're definitely going through with this." A somewhat senior leader actually asked me, they said, "If this goes wrong, it's your career." Okay. So we're talking about dare to fail again. And I said, "Okay, I'm good with that. We got all the foundations of a successful operation here. Everyone doesn't know what's going on. I kind of do." And so at the end, the operation was successful and we took the Taliban high-value target off the battlefield.
And I love telling that story because ... And others, my friends, they came to the book launch. I had a couple of guys from my team from Afghanistan, came to the book launch the other night. They were talking about this operation. And because they've read the book and they remembered this. That's how you lead when times are tough. You develop your people, you teach them how to lead. You find the actual processes that make the unit whole ... are chickens with their heads cut off. You're there, and you're like, "I'm good. Let's go."
SKOT WALDRON:
I love stories. Stories are fantastic. So thanks for sharing that.
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
Sure.
SKOT WALDRON:
You develop the people. But going back to your smart, managed, aggressive ... that was a good example of that, right? You were like, "Listen, we've got smart people. We're being smart about what we're doing. We're managing this process the way it should be managed. It's not like we're making last-minute crazy decisions that we've never made before. We're following the process. And now we're being aggressive because we have to be in what we're doing, in our confidence that we can attain this target."
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
Absolutely.
SKOT WALDRON:
So that's right on, man. Right on. I love that.
You talk about nine principles in the book, but you also mentioned four key fundamental leadership ideas. Can you walk through those with me? And why did you pick those four?
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
Sure. So let me just start off and you'll see, because I talk about leadership, so there's principles of leadership, but then there's the foundations of it, the fundamentals. And these had a lot to do with what I learned at CIA about honesty and integrity. Because when you walk into CIA headquarters, on the right side, there's the Memorial Wall with 137 stars of our officers who've been killed. And I know a lot of these people, but on the left, there's a biblical phrase that says, "And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." So there's this incredible culture of integrity and honesty.
It's ironic, people think of CIA, but actually it has to be that way because going back to what I told you before we work on our own, so you have to have that inner strength. And so what is leadership?
Well, first of all, it has to be righteous. It has to be legal, ethical, and moral. I mean, that's really important. So you can't do the wrong thing. I once had a great boss who just said her guiding principle in life was "do the right thing."
Number two, leadership is going to be ... I'm sorry, go ahead.
SKOT WALDRON:
I was going to say, let's go back. I broke up just a second. Let's go back and hit that righteous principle. I heard the righteous, and then I missed the end of it. So let's hit there, and I'll cut it.
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
Sure, sure. So for me great leadership is the art of willing those around you to conduct certain activities. And I always talk about what they really mean, but one of them, it's going to be that it's got to be righteous. It's got to be legal, ethical, and moral. And I once had one of the finest leaders I've ever worked for was a senior female counterterrorism operations manager. And she just would tell me all the time, "Do the right thing. Period." No deviation on your ethics and morals. So leadership's got to be righteous, meaning legal, ethical, and moral.
In my world, when I'm talking about here, and these principles, how this is going to work, it's going to be difficult. It's not, what do you call it? Not an everyday chore. And so you got to get out of your comfort zone. And so again, leading when times are good is pretty easy. Again, the market's going great. Your sales are great. All your employees are happy. It's a non-COVID environment where the world is turned upside down. And so, but when I talk about my fundamentals of leadership, it's got to be that it's difficult.
Next, and what I really like, is that it's got to be selfless. This is not about you. And that's really important. Never ask others to do what you would not. And I love that as well. And I'm telling you, this is something as simple as we get a resupply flight on a helicopter in Afghanistan. And it's 2:30 in the morning. I'm the base chief. I don't want to be out there. I'm out there. I'm unloading supplies. Everyone sees me do this. It's what is a principal piece of leadership. I love talking about the mess hall in a war zone. Your guys and gals got to eat. As the base chief, am I going there and eating first? Nope. Every single person's going to eat before me. I mean, it's just selfless principles.
And the last out of the four, I talked about communicable. And you know, it's not a disease. I always joke when I say that. But communicable meaning that it's easy to explain and you got to be able to accept positive and negative feedback.
So leadership has changed so much. When I joined the CIA, it was like a military organization back in 1993. You were told what to do. You never question your leader. Now leadership is a little different. It's a different generation who you're managing. So you better be open-minded. It's not the old open-door policy. You better be able to sit around with your teammates and talk about what you want to do and accept feedback. And sometimes it's going to be negative feedback. At some point, they're going to have to follow you. You've got to make a decision. But leadership has got to be communicable or people are not going to follow you in times where you have that lack of clarity, when situational awareness has kind of gone south. And so I love those four fundamentals, and that's kind of what I lived by in my 26-year career.
SKOT WALDRON:
Okay. Righteous, difficult, selfless, communicable.
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
That's right.
SKOT WALDRON:
Right on. Right on. Thank you for sharing that.
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
Sure.
SKOT WALDRON:
Tell us a little bit about those indispensable members of your team. How do we need to identify, cultivate those indispensable members of our team? Is there some kind of example behind that? I'm trying to dig for stories, man. I love the stories.
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
Sure, sure. So I love that principle. I got to be careful. It's the glue guy or the glue gal. But ultimately this is in building teams, and again, I learned this really late in my career. I wasn't smart in the beginning. But it's identifying and cultivating that indispensable member of your team. So in my world, in intelligence special operations, it would be the CIA case officer, or maybe it's the Navy SEAL, it's the guy who's going to kick the door down to grab the high-value target. But when you look at building teams that are going to be ultimately successful, particularly those down the line, when you need that clarity in a crisis situation, you have to find the behind-the-scenes support personnel. And so I'll tell you a couple of stories.
One of my favorites was our cooks in Afghanistan, we called them chefs. So this is a contract cook who's sitting there and everyday toiling making three meals a day in Afghanistan. Now we're out capturing targets, we're getting all the praise from back home. This individual, and I mean this seriously, is preparing food with correct nutritional value that allows us to work 20 hours a day. And sometimes they might cook a bad meal and people get cranky and gripe about it. So here's what I did one day. So we had a successful operation. This is in Eastern Afghanistan in 2011. And everyone's gathering around the fire pit, which we called "caveman TV." That's where we always gathered. That was kind of the team building place. And everyone's got a beer in their hand and we're toasting that we helped save American lives. And then I said, "Hey, go get our cook. He's sitting back in his hooch, in his pod. And we brought him out. This person's not cleared for any of this stuff. I didn't care. And I said, "Hey, let's just make sure that everyone toasts this individual. Because if we don't include him and make him a member of our team, boy, we're not going to be able to have this kind of high performance, elite performance athletes and outcome." And so that's what I did all throughout my career.
Another great example, we talked about our medical staff. We called them docs, but in essence it's a physician's assistant. It's a high-powered nurse who we take with us on these missions. And I'll never forget. Again, we're knocking down doors, we're taking Taliban and Al-Qaeda members off the battlefield. But one day, I got a report on the radio that a young Afghan boy outside our base had stepped on a landmine, an old Soviet landmine from 20 years ago. And I watched our medic save this boy's life. And this is not going to get written up to go back home, the president's not going to read about it. But I saw what happened, and it was extraordinary. This medic on our staff saved a young boy's life. And I was really choked up. All of us had kids. And I remember again, calling one of these all hands and saying, "Hey, we have all these successes, but don't forget what this one individual just did."
And so that's the glue guy, glue gal principal. What I do in the book is I then, after each section I have what I call a mad minute checklist. The mad minute in CIA speak is an operational act of 60 seconds to come up with the most important things you're going to tell an agent. Sometimes you have to have a quick meeting on the streets of Moscow or Beijing or something like that. So what I did is I have the mad minute checklist. So what I'm asking people when they read this is to say "In your line of work, tell me who is your glue guy or glue gal, who is that indispensable behind-the-scenes member of your team that you've got to cultivate." Because again, to have this high-performing unit, that down the line is going to be able to operate in times of gray, you got to promote and cultivate the glue guys and glue gals.
So that's some of the stories behind it. I love that principle. I learned it late in my career, but it's the right thing to do. It's how you build good teams. And I think this will resonate immediately across all different sectors, whether it's private industry, business, medical staff. Who's the glue guy in an ER, or glue gal? It's going to be the nurse, not the doctor. So I love this principle. I think people are going to really identify with it.
SKOT WALDRON:
Man, thank you so much for sharing that. It's so important that we do recognize that. I think humility in leadership, sometimes you really see it and sometimes you really don't see it. There's a lot of those principles or personalities in leadership that come out that seem very me-focused, very arrogant in the way that they're presenting ideas or even leading their teams, as "I have all the answers. I'm here for a reason. Listen to me and just do what I say. And we'll all be good." Right? That principle doesn't work in your line of work, right?
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
Right.
SKOT WALDRON:
And I'm not trying to downplay one or other, but in your line of work, that type of leadership leads to people losing their lives. And in the corporate world, we may not necessarily lose our lives ... in some cases, sure, we could put people in danger, but other times it's really about what are we losing potentially by leading that way? And that's a real danger.
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
Look, I think great leaders own their mistakes and learn from them, and poor leaders scapegoat and deflect. And so humility is a really good trait to have. It's okay to show some vulnerability sometimes as a leader. Look, I came from a crazy type-A world. But times are changing, and it's okay to be a little vulnerable, it's okay to show compassion, it's okay to say, "Look. We can't believe our own hype." And I have tons of stories where I made mistakes and I owned up to those mistakes, and my bosses understood that. But also the people under me saw that I took ownership for a mistake. I didn't blame anybody underneath me.
And then again, when you go forward to that time, when the crap's hit the fan, if you build that kind of team who understands that, they're going to do anything for you. And they're going to be able to prosper in that gray.
SKOT WALDRON:
Mark, you're a rock star. I appreciate you being here. This has been fantastic. Where can people get a hold of your book?
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
So obviously it's on Amazon right now. It's came out on June 8th. It's on Amazon. There's also the book landing page, clarityincrisisbook.com. And so it you can buy at your local bookstore, you can buy it online. I'm going to be out talking about it a lot. I love coming out and giving speeches as well on this, too. Leadership has become a passion of mine. And so I'm really excited. People are going to enjoy this. And I'll see everyone around the country over the next year or so. I think I'll be pretty busy talking about this.
SKOT WALDRON:
Fantastic. I know you have a story to tell, which makes some of the best speaking opportunities. So hold onto those. Good luck with the launch. And thanks for being here again. Really appreciate your insights. Good stuff, man.
MARK POLYMEROPOULOS:
Thanks, Skot. That was great. Thank you.
SKOT WALDRON:
We heard some really cool soundbites of information in that interview. We heard some hope in that interview. We heard some stories of impact in that interview. But we also heard something that was a little bit tragic in that interview. And that is that Mark became a good leader at the end of his career. And how unfortunate is that for the people that he was leading? The potential that he had as a leader to impact them earlier, wasn't there because he wasn't taught leadership principles inside the CIA, until later that he had to self-develop some of principles. And now he's trying to be intentional that that doesn't happen. He's trying to be intentional about teaching others about those leadership principles earlier in their career, so that they can have an impact earlier on other people.
Smart, managed, aggressive. I love those three principles. If we can learn in our careers to make decisions that are smart, managed, and aggressive, then we will be able to have bigger impact on those that we are serving and bigger impact on our businesses. I think that that fear holds us back from making decisions. And when we don't feel confident because they're not smart, maybe because they're not managed well, then we can't be aggressive because then we're just being reckless. Right? So I think that those three principles are super, super powerful and impactful. And I loved that. Clarity in the shadows, how do we dare to fail? And that's what fear is to him. It's about daring to fail. And so I think that we need to understand and embrace that principle.
And Mark, I'm super grateful for you. Thanks for your service. And thank you for being on the show today. And thanks for having patience with me here while I am in the middle of the rainforest. So thank you everybody for being on another episode of Unlocked, and I'll see you next time.
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