Unlocking Health That Actually Fits Your Life with Brian Von Ancken

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Timestamps
00:00 Cold open & setup
05:32 The “Why Wellness” Origin Story
06:15 Building a 200+ Leader Mastermind
09:04 Fast Growth Levers (AI SEO + 100 Podcasts)
15:37 “No Time?” Make It Playful & Tiny
21:17 Fads vs. The Long Game
26:03 The Three Pillars: Community • Nature • Movement
28:41 Mindful Social Workout (“Runner’s High ×10”)
30:36 The Injustice: Treatment vs Prevention
36:22 Identity First (Atomic Habits Energy)
39:26 AI & Data Are Cool – Behavior Change Wins

Brian Von Ancken (00:02.392)
I think intentionality of putting those inputs in is what’s gonna allow you to then set examples for other people around you. It’s gonna allow you to just settle into life a little more here, but you can really start to rank higher in a shorter amount of time. And so, there’s extreme mental connection to the physical stuff that you do. And it’s just a matter of finding the thing that’s able to build into your schedule.

Skot Waldron (00:32.942)
When I’m not hosting Unlocked, I’m speaking at events all over the world. I’m helping leaders and I’m helping teams communicate better. I’m helping them build trust faster and actually enjoy working together. I’ve spoken for companies like The Home Depot. I’ve spoken at national architectural firms. I’ve spoken for pharmaceutical company offsites. I’ve spoken at associations, you name it.

With 99% of attendees of all those events, over 1800 people have reviewed me at this point. 99% of them saying they got some value. That’s pretty awesome. Even the caterers have thanked me. And if they are thanking me and they’ve heard a lot of talks and they’re busy doing their jobs, that’s saying something. If you’re an event planner looking for a speaker who’s really easy to work with, trust me, I want to be the last thing you’re worried about on event day. I’m going to take care of you. And who actually delivers value for your audience that they are going to use on Monday morning when they return to the office, then let’s talk.

Know yourself and have fun. That’s what we’re going to learn a little bit about today. The whole aspect of being able to do that all revolves around your wellness and how you take care of yourself is going to impact the people you lead and the people you live with. And that is so crucial. Too many people are so focused on the wrong things.

And I think that when we don’t put ourselves first, when we don’t in the sense of our own health and wellbeing, we do a disservice to those who are, who we’re leading and who we’re working with and living with. And I think that that’s a problem.

Brian Von Ancken is the founder of the Wellness Growth Mastermind, a community of wellness leaders dedicated to business and personal growth. He previously founded the mindful social workout ANCKOR and has helped scale brands like Tough Mudder, Barry’s, and Othership as an executive. His mantra is, “Know yourself and have fun”.

Hence, why I said it at the beginning. And he talks about that as one of the pillars of wellness. I push him on some other things about; name the top three things you would focus on if you could get rid of every wellness thing out there. What are those top three things? So, stay tuned for that. And then he added on the fourth, which I will spoil is all about playfulness, adding a little bit of fun into your life, but you’re going to have to listen to get those other three. So here we come, Brian.

Skot Waldron (03:18.584)
Brian, this is a gift, man. Thanks for being on the show.

Brian Von Ancken (03:22.392)
Thanks for having me, excited to be here.

Skot Waldron (03:24.584)
Yeah, super cool. You know this wellness thing, like, I don’t know, did you go to school for wellness? Did you get a degree in wellness? I mean what brought you here? What is this?

Brian Von Ancken (03:40.392)
Yeah, well I totally got my undergrad in wellness U and then I got my, you know, graduate at wellness, you know, whatever. But no, no, this is something that I just, I fell into. I mean, this is something where I played college football. I was always about physical health. And the reality is that the only reason I started thinking about something a little more than physical health is cause I went through some really challenging times and it made me realize there’s more to taking care of yourself than just working out.

And so that’s what led me down a rabbit hole of getting very curious about all these other ways that people take care of themselves and led me to what I’m working on now today.

Skot Waldron (04:20.48)
And what is that?

Brian Von Ancken (04:23.392)
So, what I’m doing now is I’m the founder of a community called the Wellness Growth Mastermind. We’re a group of over 200 leaders from companies like Oura Ring, Eight Sleep, Peloton, Headspace, but a lot of up-and-coming brands too. And we get together and we talk about growth and we help each other grow companies because I fundamentally believe that one of the biggest problems with this world is that it is pretty unhealthy and that if we work on trying to make the world healthier, a lot of the other things tend to might work out a little bit better. So, what makes sense is this industry is almost an all boats rise type of industry where if somebody starts working out more, they’re more likely to take care of their mental health, and more likely to eat better, maybe wear a wearable. So, we all have incentives to support each other.

And I also believe that it’s a really hard proposition to grow a wellness business. I mean, if you look at all the factors out there, it’s discretionary income for the most part. There’s the sick care system that, you know, all these incentives not to be healthy, its behavior change, which is like the hardest thing to do in business. And so, we need to band together, and we need to work on how do we grow these businesses. How do we do it in a way that is good for the whole and make sure that all boats rise with it.

Skot Waldron (05:35.48)
You know, the wellness people in your group, right? You’ve got Oura Ring and Peloton and things like that, right? But I’m assuming you also have people that aren’t necessarily wellness focused in there. I mean, wellness focus from like, they don’t necessarily sell a supplement or sell a thing, or is it strictly people focused in that category?

Brian Von Ancken (05:56.364)
These are people who are operating in that category. It could be adjacent. We’re not necessarily focused specifically on people who are in a particular vertical, but if you’re an investor in the space, if you partner with people in the space, we might be able to work with you. I think, yeah, for now it is for people who we are moving the industry forward, but we end up doing a lot of things like helping the people themselves take care of themselves. And we end up unearthing quite a lot of ways that people can take care of themselves as leaders. And that ends up coming up quite a lot in what we do, kind of organically.

Skot Waldron (06:33.48)
I bet, I bet they lean into each other quite a bit. Hence the mastermind idea, which is, which is really good. You know, your group, it’s, it’s not just about wellness. And I think that that’s, know, I think that’s, it should be obvious, right? There’s a lot of things that they’ll talk about inside of that group, I’m sure. But really about business performance and how can we accelerate our business and, in this community, in this vertical.

I’m curious though. For these business owners focused in this space, what is like one of the most bold thing that you’ve heard them do as a growth strategy or something that you’ve seen really take off in this space that’s actually worked that could maybe apply to other industries as well?

Brian Von Ancken (07:21.00)
Oh man, there’s so many. I mean, so what we do is we get together monthly and we have these calls where we bring in somebody who’s done something exactly like what you’re talking about and shares kind of a case study on, what they’ve done. And, you know, there’s so many different examples. I think one of the things that we just had a call on yesterday was, SEO in the world of AI and what are the things that you can do to start to get ranked on ChatGPT and the other LLMs. And it’s kind of like, you know, there’s all different ways to do it. But I think, you know, Reddit is something if you can get that Reddit profile, if you can get your Wikipedia references, if you can start your list goals, like one of the things that I’ve been impressed by is that the, the, um, amount of time it takes to rank for those algorithms are shorter than traditional SEO. I think a lot of people think of SEO is something that takes six months to a year, but you know, you can really start to rank higher in a shorter amount of time. So, people are doing that.

But we’ve had people like, people are starting podcasts and that’s one of the ways that they’ve accelerated their growth or been guests on podcasts. I know that we had somebody in the group recently wrote an article about it. Maybe I could share with you for the show notes, but head of growth at Levels Health and he helped get the founder on, I think, 100 podcasts in six months. And that was like a huge driver of performance being on there. I think wellness companies are unique in the sense that we have an education gap a lot of times where we need to… It’s not necessarily something that’s easily condensable into a short Meta Ad. And so, if you have more of a long form ability to explain it, that gives you a lot better chance of converting some or at least getting somebody interested. And so, yeah, I think podcasts, think SEO, there’s some amazing influencers that people have worked with. And then obviously the optimization of performance marketing is where a lot of the needle gets put. But it depends if you’re B2B as well. We have a lot of B2B companies out there who are doing creative things as well, whether it’s the ghost writing on LinkedIn, or like I said, creating their own podcasts for prospects and that sort of thing. So, it’s all over the place. That was not a, you know, that was a lot.

Skot Waldron (09:30.48)
No, I mean, it makes sense. I mean, I think that’s what we’re all dealing with. I was actually just talking to somebody. Was it, I mean, seriously yesterday or the day before, um, about the ranking thing, you know. We were just having that conversation, uh, cause it’s for real, man. It is for real. Um, no, it was yesterday. Yeah. And so, it’s top of mind for a lot of people and it needs to be, um, cause the world’s happening that way.

So that’s, you know, the idea of keeping your business healthy and starting to have these conversations with these people is really relevant and really important. And it seems like this industry is not slowing down, man. Like it seems like it is just exploding, like it’s blowing up all kinds of things. I mean, I’ve got, you know, I’ve got the Levels App and I’m using my glucose monitor, some tracking a bunch of stuff and I’m a data geek. So, I have my doctor loves me, man. Like I have so much data, my wearables and everything else that that’s going on. Is that okay? Like, what do you think about that? Like, I mean, that trend of like, is it, are we getting too, too much in that space or are you think it’s like, hey man, this is a good place. We should be this way.

Brian Von Ancken (10:501.00)
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s a fundamental philosophical question where the fact that wellness is being talked about a lot more and the fact that people are thinking about a lot more. It’s hard for me to feel like that that’s a bad thing. Now, is that necessarily perfect? Are there bad apples? Is there some snake oil? Is there some downside to it? Absolutely. I have a hard time criticizing if people are trying to do it for the right reasons, trying to make the world a healthier place. And maybe it’s not perfect. I’m just, life is not perfect. And I think we need to maybe be a little less judgmental of spaces, just trying to do the right thing. And maybe it’s not perfect, but we’re doing the best we can. I think the more the world thinks about their health and doesn’t outsource it to somebody else, whether it’s their doctor or somebody like, there’s such a place for healthcare, there’s such a place for doctors, but the more that you take ownership of your health and you get curious about it, I really believe that that just, it’s a completely different life experience once you start to have that mindset. And the more we can do that to people, the better.

The reality is the way to get people to start to do that is different for almost everybody. Some people might get the door cracked open from working out. Some it might be meditation. Some it might be the data and the wearables. Some it might be the food and that’s all of it is really just entry points into ownership and responsibility and curiosity about your own health and how you can help yourself. And it’s not just about living to be 120 or whatever. It’s like, no, how do you actually just feel better on a day-to-day basis and not feel like you’re just hanging on for dear life? And I talk a lot about find your total health formula. Everybody in the world has a formula that is the minimum number of inputs that you can put in that are healthy per week that are going to allow you to feel good and on top of what you’re doing. And for some people, it’s going to be fishing. Some people it’s going to be meditating. Some people it’s going to be bowling. Some people, but I think intentionality of putting those inputs in is what’s going to allow you to then set examples for other people around you. It’s going to allow you to just settle into life a little more and not wake up in 10 years and be like, what just happened? And this is coming from someone who has a kid and another on the way. I’m not just one of these privilege… privilege is wrong term, but there’s some people out there who have a six-hour morning routine, right? And they don’t have any kids. Like, I used to be somebody who did a lot of that and it was great if you can, but for those of us who are busy and especially if you’ve got an intense job, there’s still ways that you can put those minimum inputs in to make yourself feel like, all right, I’m at least doing the minimum amount I can to feel like what I want to be feeling.

Skot Waldron (13:38.00)
So, what do you say to the people that say I don’t have time for that?

Brian Von Ancken (13:42.00)
So, I say, this is great. Let’s brainstorm a little bit, right? Like let’s have a creative mindset. Let’s try to be a little playful about what the things are that you can do. I mean, I’ll speak about myself from example. I used to meditate. Don’t really have time for that anymore. But what I do do is I have a two-minute little mantra that’s on inside timer. It’s free. I listened to it right before I start work. And those two minutes, it’s just saying things like, you know, hey, you know, you’re the creator of your life. You can do this, like, you know, be kind to other people, all these nice things that I think are nice for my subconscious to hear. And it’s also the signaling for my body that like, okay, the transition from family time to work time has happened.

The other thing I do is I do a yoga on Friday afternoons. So, Friday, late afternoon, right before I’m ending work, I kind of bookmark my day with my weeks with something healthy so that it signals to my body that, okay, we’re now ready to go back to family time or go do whatever it might be. And then, you know, on the other sides of it, it’s not about being perfect. It’s just about finding the things that feel a little bit easier for you to do than, you know, the person next to you. Like I said, it can be, you could do like, my dad holds a plank every morning. He listens to the song, Hey Jude, and does a plank during Hey Jude. And that’s, it’s a long song. It’s fun. He worked his way up for it, but you know, you can make it fun, and it doesn’t have to be a lot of time. But I also just think the biggest key is not beating yourself up and not feeling like you have to be perfect and giving yourself permission to try and fail and then find and iterate your way to the thing that actually fits into your schedule because we all, we all are scrolling these things and, there is a way in which we can maybe substitute it or maybe add onto it. It’s going to depend on every person.

Skot Waldron (15:32.00)
Well said. And I think there is so much, I don’t know. Like feel like there’s so much social pressure to be fit and to eat right. And which rightly so. I mean, we should be more fit, and we should eat right because we do have, I don’t know, you have stats, I’m sure of one of the most unhealthy nations, right. And what we do and I think that there’s, there’s something to that, it’s amazing how much access we have for the most part to the certain programs and certain ways that we can do certain things. There’s a lot of people that don’t have that access either in this country or globally. And there needs to be things for that. But to think about how unhealthy we are as a nation, but yet how much pressure there is and what that does to our mental health. Like, I don’t know. What do you think about that and the struggle that’s there?

Brian Von Ancken (16:31.398)
I mean, the struggle is real, of course. I do think, like you said, we are a mimic species. And so I think Brian Johnson, who’s, he’s somebody who’s doing some pretty kooky things, but he said the most healthy thing that you can do for yourself is actually surround yourself with other healthy people, because we do have that tendency to like, okay, I need to keep up with the Joneses, so to speak. And so, of all the things that’s probably useful, if you have people around you that are making healthy decisions.

Now, the other side of it is the mental side of the pressure and the shoulds and the expectations. And that is extremely real. And I wish I had a great answer on how to mitigate that. But to me, the only way is really being extremely curious about those feelings and being extremely curious about where things are coming in. Because if you’re acting from a place of should, it’s never going to work. You’re never going to keep it up. You’re never going to maintain it.

Everything needs to be coming from a place of authentic. Like this is actually what I want to do. This is where I want to be. This is who I want to be. And if you’re wanting to be something for somebody else, the motivation ultimately will wear off. And so, it’s not a matter of being perfect. And I think I understand the pressure to do that. But if we can find a way to get to that minimum.

I really like, I wish more people were like, do the least amount possible because it’s like, I passed the bar. I’m an attorney and don’t practice as much anymore. But the people who ace the bar, they are just as good as the people who passed the bar and would have failed with one question, you know, if they got one question, because you both pass and it’s as low as, know, it’s like, is it worth the extra effort to be perfect? No, you probably just, you want to be good enough to be a lawyer, to be healthy and so what are your minimum inputs to pass the bar for your version of being healthy?

Skot Waldron (18:25.554)
Yeah, because I don’t know anybody who really, I don’t think I asked my lawyer what they got on their exam, you know?

Brian Von Ancken (18:32.554)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Skot Waldron (18:34.554)
You brought Brian Johnson’s name. He is doing some crazy stuff out there, really extreme, but he’s pushing limits a lot and testing different elements. I’m sure there’s a lot of companies out there that are trying to push the envelope and trying to, you know, bring out some new thing. And the health industry is full of fads and gimmicks and all types of crazy stuff that we hear sometimes that’s here today, gone tomorrow. Do you see like, what do you think right now is like one of those. Do you think, mean, just, I’m not, you know, not going to hold you to it forever here. And you know, but I mean, what do you think people are getting too hung up on right now?

Brian Von Ancken (19:15.734)
I think you’re very right that the wellness industry is cyclical and it has fads and that’s just a part of, you know, that’s a part of the industry. I think that right now there’s some places that are hot. I mean, protein is something that is very hot right now and something that is being taken advantage of by a lot of bigger companies too who are adding protein to adding protein to different products. You know, I think creatine. I think there’s so many different examples of things that you could say are maybe too hot right now, but that doesn’t make them not right. And that doesn’t make them not valuable for the right amount of people. I mean, when I was at Tough Mudder, I was early at Tough Mudder, we had an extreme explosion of popularity and it’s since gone down, but it’s still exist and it’s still good for some people. And so again, I just have this mindset of like, yes, maybe not everybody needs to think about protein as much as they are right now, or it needs to be as hot, but is it valuable to give people the chance to think about it? And is it worthwhile to then find your own relationship to it that works? I don’t see too much harm in that. But who knows? I think, yeah, there’s going to be quite a lot right now that’s hot. I think longevity. I think there’s a lot of things that are here to stay, though. And I really would bet in the long game. I’ve been in the long run on the wellness industry as a whole.

Skot Waldron (20:37.000)
Yeah. I mean, let’s take protein for a second. It is really hard to get an adequate amount of protein, like what we’re supposed to get, you know, people say your body weight or 150% your body weight or 70 % of your body, like whatever the number is of the day, but it’s, it is hard. Um, I’ve been trying to do it and regulate, you know, watching my level stuff and then watching macros and then also checking my Apple health plus my Strava data and all types of things that are going through that process.

But I do sit there and I go, man, if I can supplement with that Quest bar, or if I can supplement with that protein cookie or with something, I mean, is it the natural protein that I think our body needs and wants? Probably not, right? Do I eat a protein shake, right? Is it made from grass fed or is it whey protein or what? I I don’t know. What’s the thing? Do you think any of those will crash and burn anytime? Is that an okay message? Is that just exploitation by some of these companies? What is it?

Brian Von Ancken (21:49.078)
I think that for anybody to claim to know exactly how much protein a human needs is a bit of hubris in my opinion. I think there’s been too many conflicting kind of studies that seem to indicate what exactly is right. From what I can tell, if you’re more intentional about your protein intake and you’re able to eat something that might have a little bit extra protein in it. Like for example, we’ve got someone in the group who just created a cottage cheese protein packed ice cream that like to me, I think is actually a really perfect embodiment of what, how I look at this sort of thing where it’s like part of me wants to be like, part of me could say, don’t ever eat ice cream. That’s ridiculous. That’s obviously not healthy at all. But the reality is that we’re humans and we like to indulge sometimes and that if you’re going to indulge, maybe there’s a way to do it that has that more intentional mindset to it.

Am I sure that all these fads will, or these mindsets will maintain the intensity of focus that they have right now? No, I don’t think it’s realistic to think that. But for right now, I feel like if you can talk to your doctor, figure out where they’re at, figure out if you agree with their perspective and do your best to get there. You know, I have not noticed the tangible difference if I’m not eating the exact number, but if I’m more intentional about protein, I end up feeling better as a whole than I do if don’t.

Skot Waldron (23:20.942)
Okay, that’s fair. I mean, if you all these wellness trends, all the things that are happening, if you could delete 90% of them, but keep like three of them that that leaders need to have now in order to be healthy, because I mean, let’s face it, health is a very personal thing, but it affects everything else that we do. The people in our lives, both at home, both at work, and at work.

What would be those three key elements? You get rid of all the 90%, right? I’m not going to measure how many macros or whatever, right? But unless that’s one of your three, but I don’t think it probably is. Bu you know, what would it be?

Brian Von Ancken (24:04.000)
I mean, it’s three things. It’s the things we all know they’re free. To me it’s Community, Nature and Movement. If you can find a group of people that have your back that you can be honest and vulnerable with that is something that is extremely important to the human condition and helps you feel a part of something bigger than yourself that helps you feel grounded. It’s extremely, it just the benefits of being around other people like that. It’s innumerable.

The other thing is, yeah, just making sure that you’re getting outside. If you’re just on the screen and all the time, it’s just not going to work. And so, finding your version of outside time and nature ideally. And then, just whatever your form of movement is, it’s going to be different for each person.

But the reality is that I don’t know about anybody else out there, but I feel completely different running my business after I’ve gone for a run or swim than if I do, if I didn’t. And it’s kind of, I view it as like, it’s just, there’s something that needs to release. It’s like, things build up, anxieties build up, thoughts build up. And then if you go for that run, a lot of times some of that can kind of release. And that’s not to say it won’t build back up, but to me, those three are kind of the that’s the gist of it, man. That gets you 90% of the way there.

Skot Waldron (25:30.000)
That’s solid. I was talking to somebody I was one of my clients that I’m working with a while ago. And, you know, he came up to me and he’s stressed, he’s CEO of an organization and, and came to me and he’s just like, you know, like, I want I’m gonna start getting out there and start riding my bike. And, you know, he’s like, I got this hybrid bike that I don’t ride very often. I’m gonna go out there, I’m gonna ride it, you know, whether it’s five miles or whatever in the mornings and then I’m gonna cut down on my alcohol intake and things like that, right? Because he, and it was really a mental health thing more than a physical health thing for him to really tackle those elements because he realized what was happening was it was helping him medicate or check out because of the stress he was feeling at other places and being able to use that as a way to release some of that was just was really powerful for him. So, I’m guessing you, you believe the same thing. You’ve seen the same thing; you experience the same thing.

Brian Von Ancken (26:39.000)
Yeah, I mean, so one of my earlier companies that I created was called ANCKOR and it was a mindful social work out because it spoke to exactly what you’re talking about where I believe that working out ends up having tons of mental health benefits. But what if you were a little more intentional about it?

So, this was a 50 minute workout experience that, you know, combined a little bit of breath work in the beginning with a boot camp style class where you actually connected with other people like we had people you know, doing circuit workouts, partner workouts where you would hold a squat for 30 seconds and then you’d share something to the other person. Like what’s a moment I was most proud of and like just those little moments of social connection. And then we did a little meditation at the end. People came out of it. You know, they talk about a runner’s high. This was like a runner’s high times 10.

And so, there’s extreme mental connection to the physical stuff that you do. And it’s just a matter of finding the thing that’s actually able to build into your schedule. Because there’s no should, there’s no should on how to do it perfectly. I know there’s obviously doctor recommended amounts that you’d like to ideally get to, but it’s so much more about what’s realistic in your life. If you’re the busy CEO and if you put too much pressure on yourself and you add in too many things at once, you’re going to short circuit, it’s not going to last. And so, it’s just a matter of like really knowing yourself well and knowing what’s actually doable within your week and then starting from there.

Skot Waldron (28:03.000)
So, what makes your heart hurt when you hear stuff like that? I mean, just around that idea of getting people started or understanding what works for them and understanding how to build certain things that are convenient enough that people aren’t just gonna like, forget it. Can’t find my gym shoes, so I’m just not gonna go to the gym. But what’s the injustice you think in the world of wellness and the world of our own health and business that you’re fighting? What are you working on?

Brian Von Ancken (28:33.000)
I mean, I have so much empathy for people. I don’t really like, it’s so understandable if you don’t have time to take care of yourself, if life’s hard. So, it’s hard for me to feel upset or angry about that sort of thing. I think that the part that does feel, it’s not ideal is how much we focus on treatment as opposed to prevention and how much it feels like our system is not on our side to help people make these decisions and incentivize them to make these healthier decisions and how much we’re on an island, right? I mean, I was not taught in school all of this stuff. I was encouraged to binge drink, and I was encouraged to eat really unhealthy food and then hopefully my health insurance takes care of me if and when the big things happen. And it’s a system we’re living in, and I don’t. I’m not gonna, I’m gonna work within what we have, but I really would love to start to help people move towards and have some of the systems move towards encouraging this prevention because it’s just there for all of us and it’s so hard to do on your own.

And if you actually had incentives from governments, from institutions, from health insurers to be healthy, we’re, you know, we work through incentives, incentives can work. And so, we just, if we could all be aligned on that, which to me makes no sense that we’re not aligned, sometimes that does get me little upset.

Skot Waldron (30:12.000)
Are y’all working on that? Is there somebody in your group that’s working on that? I mean, do y’all have connections with government and with other programs and things like that to push? Is anybody working on this? I would think there are.

Brian Von Ancken (30:26.000)
Yeah. It’s interesting because there’s definitely been some movement with the Make America Healthy Again initiatives that have spoken about, okay, hey, we’re gonna try to get pharmaceuticals, be less dependent on pharmaceuticals, have more intentional food system. I think they just recently brought back the presidential fitness exam.

So, there’s some small things happening. But from what I’ve seen is there’s so much polarization around it that anytime you get near something like that, 50% of the population decides that it’s not for them. And so, I wouldn’t say that there’s huge momentum right now. I think we’re working on it. And I think there’s a couple towns out there that are experimenting with wellness coordinators within the town to help make the town more conducive to wellness and bring people in. But honestly, the mentality of our group is very much us versus them. It’s an uphill battle. This is a war. There’s really not a ton happening right now that I feel like the industry is fully aware of that it can get behind.

Skot Waldron (31:43.000)
Hmm. Is that discouraging?

Brian Von Ancken (31:47.000)
No, because honestly, it’s early days. If you play the long term, the fact that we’re seeing these little things start to happen and the fact that we can just… To me, I’m not interested in going to… It’s like, this is how I run my business, right? I’m not interested in going to the consumer. I mean, Steve Jobs might say otherwise and be like, this is what you should do. It’s more like if we can get a groundswell of people talking about it, living their lives this way, then I think these other entities have no choice but to react.

But I’m not interested in going to them and telling them to then tell people it’s like, no, let’s, you know, we’ll work really hard and we’ll keep building this over time. And then we will get to a point where it’s almost unignorable. And when you see that in the travel industry, we’ve got all these travel companies and wellness and facilities that are now incorporating wellness into it. And it’s just, it’s just happening naturally. And I think to me, that’s the most effective is that if you have people think of themselves as like, I’m a healthy person. I think healthy, I’m a wellness person.

The more people that think like that, the more institutions that will need to cater to those expectations and collective consciousness. So, we’ll see.

Skot Waldron (32:54.99)
I think there’s something really relevant there. And I just had a guest on a couple of weeks ago from he’s in charge of wellbeing and wellness at Johns Hopkins and developing programs there. And he just wrote a book about the mentality behind wellness of it being a systemic issue, like really trying to integrate it into, you know, it’s great that we have apps. It’s great that we have these things that you can use for your own personal health and that we have 5k runs and things like that. But when you start integrating it into the system of work, when you start integrating it into the ethos of who we are as an organization, like this is what we do. This is who we are. There’s so much more that could be cemented there. And, I kind of, I’m tying this back into the you know, national issue or whatever we’re in right now here in the United States or anywhere else in the world. But like, how do we make it a systemic thing and not just like another program to, you know, here’s a program we’re going to do in this place or here’s something we’re going to do for schools or here’s like, you know, like, I don’t know how much momentum we can get there, how much the mentality around wellness is there, I don’t know. What do you think?

Brian Von Ancken (34:20.000)
I mean, to me, it’s all about, I think you got to start with archetypes. Like who, how do you find people who you look up to that start to make decisions who that are health conscious and how do you have more of them that are realistic and not necessarily just six pack abs and whatever, right? Or meditating every day for an hour, right? How do you have everyday people who people look up to who make it clear that health is a priority and it’s really, really hard to, as you said, like the identity is what’s ultimately going to drive behavior change. That’s what Atomic Habits is all about. James Clear, if you start with the identity, then there’s many steps you can take from there. But without the identity, it’s very, very hard to make it stick.

And so, I just really believe in the pebble approach of it’s going to take the little steps that we can take, and eventually it’s going to lead to something that’s very, very valuable. The more pressure we put on this to be perfect, the more pressure we put on this to be happen tomorrow, the more likelihood I think we have for this to not be done right, not be done in a way that has the full support. Because like I said, just think about the worst thing that you could say to somebody is like, you should work out. Have you worked out? You should meditate. You really should.

Like you should people into this sort of stuff and it just like the exact opposite thing will happen. And so, it really is just going to take the, you know, show, don’t tell, build it in where you can, and then let people come to that when they’re going to, because, yeah, that’s just, I mean, I don’t know. I think people can have very different perspectives on that, but that’s kind of how I, how I think about it.

Skot Waldron (36:06.99)
Yeah. I want to talk a little bit. So, we talked about tech for a second and tech in the wellness industry and how we can use that. Paul Zak, I’m not sure if you know Paul Zak, a neuroscientist that has a wearable that, well, that’s not a wearable. It’s actually an app that goes in to measure stress and wellbeing and some people at Google have started adopting it and the data is approaches to where people can start, know, leaders and teams, it’s anonymous data, but we can start to kind of see what, where we’re getting the most energy from and what we’re not getting energy from. What’s where the momentum and the motivation comes from. And so, we talk about different data like that. I use, you know, like I said, I have, you know, different things that are tracking different types of data.

And there’s a whole data ethics thing I’m sure you could go into as well, but I don’t want to hit that. I want to talk about like the world of AI and how people are using that now in the wellness community. is there a, what’s the trend that’s happening right now in regards to AI in the space?

Brian Von Ancken (37:21.442)
Well, you’re not a real company if you don’t have AI in your pitch deck or in your, you know, in some way. And you know, I’m being facetious, but I do think to some degree it’s true. Everybody’s thinking about it. I mean, I know that I don’t know many people who haven’t inputted some sort of health question into ChatGPT. And maybe some people have uploaded their blood panels, and some people have uploaded whatever it might be.

And so, there’s quite a lot of companies in my group forward taking advantage of that and aggregating wearable data and putting it into a very concise app that then you can share with your doctor and stuff like that. Or there’s this blood work, all the new blood work that you can do and analyzing it through there. If I weren’t, I wish there weren’t dystopian concerns because I love what you’ve just described. Like if we could really truly measure what our employees are doing and be able to understand their energy levels and then adapt correctly. Like I think there’s there’s a lot of potential there. And then, you know, you can apply that to insurance companies. You can apply that to a lot of different stakeholders who I think have a lot of opportunity to leverage AI, to synthesize the data in order to find out what are the ways that we can optimize things.

I think, you know, the real, where the rubber hits the road on all this stuff, in my opinion, is that there’s quite a lot of companies out there that are doing the AI thing and providing a lot of data and sharing more data. But the question is, ultimately all this health stuff is behavior change. So where are the companies, what are the things that are actually helping you change your behavior, which is an extremely difficult thing to do because just because you give a human data that says, hey, you you’re really not supposed to have beers on Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday, you know, that not it’s not going to lead to behavior change. So, you need to have the behavior change with it. And what are the companies that can help you actually do that? And so, you need both, in my opinion.

Skot Waldron (39:14.00)
The behavior change thing is big. I worked with the CDC for a long time on different marketing campaigns and branding initiatives and communication efforts. And they’re consistently, you know, whatever you think about the CDC, they’re consistently talking about behavior change. Like that is the thing that they help because honestly, as a government agency, they don’t measure like clicks and how much they’re measuring, you know, website visitors versus this and they use it for data, but it’s not necessarily how they monetize success and what they’re doing. So really what they’re trying to track is behavior change and how do we measure behavior change and our culture and to make sure we’re getting that.

If we can get the behavior change element down, you know, it’ll start the ball will start rolling. The snowball will get bigger and bigger. It’ll just, the momentum will carry. The behavior change is just so critical. And I think a lot of apps are trying to gamify it maybe a little bit more. Trying to get that behavior in there. Like, you my Levels App told me my score is each time I’m doing stuff. And I told my daughter yesterday, got, dang, I got knocked four points because I had that cookie, you know? So, it’s a little bit of like, but I’m learning about my body and I’m learning about what works and what doesn’t, which has created behavior change in me, which is I think, what we should be going for. And as companies and leaders start thinking about how to do that, know, throwing another program, another app, another thing at it, I don’t think necessarily is the answer, but how we integrate that’s into the mindset.

Brian Von Ancken (40:56.442)
Yeah. I mean, there’s something to be said about, I think being motivated to make money is something that can lead to some very bad outcomes, but it can also lead to you it’s a really good motivator. And if the CDC is measuring behavior change, we’re not really interested. It’s like, it’s kind of like, you kind of need that someone, okay, I’m really hungry. I need to try to get this person to actually do the thing. So that, and the behavior change kind of needs that level of like, intensity and personalization and like, you know, there’s some great apps out there like future and, you know, train well that are doing AI personal training and like really giving a personal touch though to these types of things and giving people, you know, checking in all week to make sure that things are done. Cause it’s like, you need, you need a lot for the behavior change side of things. And I think, yeah, if you’re going to be doing it at the organizational level, just adding another wellness perk is probably not going to do it.

Adding another wellness perk is, and no wellness perk is going to satisfy everybody. And that’s why I think it needs to be looked at more holistically than just like checking a box. And then it needs to be measured over time, which is the luxury that not a lot of companies have of like, okay, if I try this thing, does it actually work? And that takes a lot of time, takes a lot of effort, but there, there are ways to do it. And, I know there are organizations out there that do invest in it ends up being extremely a worthwhile investment in the long term.

Skot Waldron (42:20.00)
Well said. All right; I’m going to ask you some quick questions. Are you ready?

Brian Von Ancken (42:23.442)
Sure.

Skot Waldron (42:27.00)
Wellness book, everybody should check out.

Brian Von Ancken (42:29.000)
That’s a really good question. I like, let’s see, the book by, I mean, there’s so many books, but.

Skot Waldron (42:39.00)
So many. So many.

Brian Von Ancken (42:40.056)
To me, it’s like Casey Means wrote a book that’s called Good Energy. That’s what it’s called. I couldn’t remember it, but she was just, you know, her and her brother co-wrote it. And to me, you know, obviously I feel like we’re promoting levels a lot here. I didn’t mean to, but I think the metabolic health crisis is one that is one that people don’t maybe know a lot about. I think she does a really great job of laying out like, hey, we are screwed as a country. There’s a lot going on that the trends are really bad and it boils down to if we’re more intentional about what we eat, that can go a long way. And I think she’s just got a good tone to it. So, I would say that’s a good recommendation for now.

Skot Waldron (43:19.00)
I agree. I think there’s a, if we were more concerned about, you know, what we put in our bodies that wasn’t just a pill or some kind of medication. Now, granted, there are people that need that and that’s understandable. But when people try to use it as a, I guess a way to not have to be uncomfortable eating something that they probably shouldn’t, then that’s where the problem comes, right? All right, so.

What’s your go-to wellness app that you think you got on your phone that you use frequently that helps you?

Brian Von Ancken (43:59.056)
Yeah, I mean, so I use the Othership Breathwork App. There, I used to help them build it, I used to work for them. But to me, meditation is something that is great, but hard when you’re in a pinch, in my opinion. And to me, when I am up at night, and I have anxious thoughts, I’ll pop open the app, and I’ll do a five-minute breathwork and it immediately takes me from my mind back into my body.

So, to me, it’s like the, it can help you slow down. It can also help you speed up, get you excited for a presentation or whatever it might be. So, I think they’ve just got a lot of use cases in there and I find it, and it’s just a beautiful app as well. It doesn’t need to be Othership. It could be, there’s lots of other ones out there too, but that’s the one I use.

Skot Waldron (44:46.00)
Cool. Podcasts, you listening to podcasts that you think people would find a lot of pleasure in. I mean, just learning more about this and that are interesting and, you know, something like that.

Brian Von Ancken (44:57.000)
Yeah. I mean, there’s so many, obviously. And I think that depending on whether you’re more data heavy and you want to listen to Andrew Huberman, or if you’re somebody who’s maybe more interested on the fitness side, there’s lots of people. think, I don’t know, I go back to, I just love Tim Ferriss, and I think he does a lot of wellness stuff and I think he’s just very curious and brings in great guests and boils things down really, really well. That’s probably the biggest name that I’d think of.

We’ve got somebody named Bishoy Tadros. He has the Mile 40 podcast who’s on the group and he talks a lot about going through hard things, trying hard things and brings in all these different leaders to chat about. And I think that to me is also a good distillation of like, these are some cool new wellness trends that are out there and what works and what doesn’t.

Skot Waldron (45:54.358)
Okay. One, I mean, you gave me three things, community, nature, movement that you believe, that people were like, those were the three, like those are the three. What’s one that you wish would go away?

Brian Von Ancken (46:10.358)
I was already thinking my answer of if you said, what’s the one that you wish you had in there, wish you had said to me, it’s like playfulness and fun. I just, feel like I need to, I just really think that people need to, people need to laugh. People need to play. They need to, you know, play board games, play sports, whatever it might be. I think that’s, that is the most underrated pillar of wellness. And you made me say three, I would have said four, but I think play is really, really important.

So, but yeah, no, to, get rid of something, I mean, there’s not really anything that I’ve paid enough to say it needs to get rid of it. I think that we can focus a little bit too much sometimes on the longevity side of things with the incorrect lens of, of saying like, oh, this is exactly what’s going to make me live. I think there’s a bit of hubris and being like, I’m definitely going to live to a hundred and so you can get hit by a bus or whatever. So I just, the frame I think can be like, how do I put some inputs in now that probably will work better in the long term, but the certainty of some of it is a little unnerving to me.

Skot Waldron (47:10.68)
That’s a good point. And I think a mindset exercise for all of us to not put off our health, to think about, I’ll do that in the new year, or I’ve got this thing coming down, but because you’re right. You know, none of us are guaranteed tomorrow and life is precious and whatnot. And when we think about this podcast, I was listening to Hidden Brain, there’s someone talking about age time horizons and how our perspective as we get older really changes.

And so, the younger people out there, they’re listening to this, don’t put it off, right? You know, I know you think you got like a million years left in your life, but you know, nobody has a guarantee for tomorrow. And I think all of us need that mindset.

Brian Von Ancken (48:03.358)
And just make it fun. Like if you just distill down the things that you do that are fun in your life, there are ways to make them slightly better for you than you think. Right? I mean, going out and getting wasted with friends. There’s these amazing non-alcoholic bar places in certain cities that are popping up. There’s, you know, community that you can do. There’s ways that you can do a breath. Like I, you’re gonna find your own way to it. But you just don’t put too much pressure on it and have fun with it. Find a way to make it fun because there is a way to make it fun. And matter of fact, it doesn’t have to be such like, man, I got to change this because our brain, can teach our brains to think of things differently. We now many, many of us probably think, I got to go do that run or I got to do it. But once you work out enough, your body starts to be like, I get to do that run, right? Get to go do that. So, it’s just, it just takes that little bit of in the beginning friction and then you can have a different relationship to the decisions.

Skot Waldron (48:55.808)
It is, it is interesting. I’ll tell my daughter that we’ll go work out at the gym and she may be like super night, not stoked about going to the gym. And afterwards, I’m always like, so how’d you feel? She’s like, nah, I’m, you know, it’s good. You know, I just don’t know many people that get done working or eating something healthier, experiencing some kind of, you know, yoga class or breath work. And then they get done. They’re like that. I’m way off worse off than I was when I started that exercise, you know, unless you get hurt during the exercise, right. But that’s for another thing. But I, you know, there is benefit to it and everybody knows it. And, you know, the more you experience it, the more your brain will not resist it, I think, too.

So, man, so cool. So, tell me really quick, we’re gonna close up. Tell me about the group. Can people be part of that? Do people like where they get more content and ideas about how they can understand who you are and what you do.

Brian Von Ancken (49:53.358)
Yeah, I would say. If you’re interested in connecting with me, LinkedIn is the best place to do it. Just Brian Von Ancken. I’m the only one. It’s a weird last name. And then if you’re interested in the group and you’re connected to wellness, you can go to www.joinwgm.com. And even if you’re not in this space, feel free to sign up and we share some interesting content. And I do have a little newsletter for people who are maybe not in this space but want to hear about interesting things going on in the industry.

So, just come check me out. And I think for me, just, the more that I can answer questions too, if people have any questions about this sort of stuff, like I really, this is why I get out of bed in the morning is just to try to make this thing more accessible, more palatable, more fun, more dynamic so that, you know, it doesn’t have to be so woo woo or too scientific. It’s like, let’s just do our best to move our society and people forward to be a little healthier and not necessarily do it in a way that’s too preachy or whatever.

Skot Waldron (50:46.808)
Thank you. Appreciate you being on dude. Well done.

Brian Von Ancken (50:49.11)
Thank you so much, this was great.

Skot Waldron (50:56.11)
Let’s build communities. Let’s understand that we need each other. Community is so essential. Nature, get out into nature, y’all. Nature, it’s helpful. It is rejuvenating. We are all part of the thing. We are all part of this world. We’re all part and connected. The energy we have, the energy we give, it’s all part of it. And then get some movement.

And the movement and the nature part, and the community part, they could all be done together. If we could do that and also make it a little bit more playful, hey man, all day. I hope you all got something out of that. We jumped a lot around to a lot of different topics. I was really curious on my side, just to have him on the show as a gift. I really wanted to pull different elements and thoughts from him because he has heard and experienced so much in this community from so many influential people. I really wanted to understand his perspective and where we were going and what we were doing. I’m grateful there are people like Brian out there. I’m grateful that we have the opportunity to be better and to be healthier.

You as a leader have so much opportunity to impact the people that work for you, with you, around you, and that is a gift that you have to give them. Don’t rob people of that gift because you aren’t taking care of yourself. You have something to impart on everybody, and we need that. So please keep doing it. Please keep taking care of yourself. Implement just a little thing. He bookends his weeks, Brian does, with some really simple things. We’re busy. I get it. He gets it. But we need you. So please take care of yourself.

If you want to find out more information about me or check out the show notes where there’s going to be more information and links to the things referenced in this episode, visit skotwaldron.com. And lastly, I’m asking for a little bit of love, just a little bit. So please take a moment, follow, rate the show. The algorithm is like that; it helps me get the word out. I really appreciate it.

Thank you. And until next time, stay Unlocked.