Skot Waldron:
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Hi everybody, welcome to another episode of Unlocked, where we talk about unlocking the potential of people so that we can unlock the potential of organizations and ultimately humanity, right. Well I'm Skot and to today I have a conversation for you with Paula Leach, she is the founder of Vantage Points Consulting. And she works exclusively with leaders to help them fall back in love with their careers. And really about the idea of a return to leadership and what that means, and that we're all human. She mentions this, that we're all adults in the workplace, right. That we all just have different roles and different gifts and talents that we're trying to put together.
We start off the conversation with this little idea, right, I posed the question to her, "Don't we just do work because people pay us to do work?" I was setting her up obviously, but no, the answer is no we don't. And science proves this. So she's going to actually tell us three things that we need in an organization to create engaged employees. And then she talks more about some ideas from the book that are really, really good, that I want you to pay attention to. They're really, really smart. So anyway, let's just get on with it. I don't even know why I'm talking. So all right, you ready? Let's go.
Hi, Paula, it is good to have you on the show today.
Paula Leach:
Thank you, Skot. It's lovely to be here. It's from a very rainy London today, I join you.
SKOT WALDRON:
It never rains in London though, right?
PAULA LEACH:
Well, it doesn't rain as much as you think, but it's pretty miserable today.
SKOT WALDRON:
Okay, all right.
PAULA LEACH:
Yeah, it's lovely to transport myself to the other side of the world.
SKOT WALDRON:
Well it is beautiful and sunny here in Atlanta. And it's going to be 75 degrees today, so we're loving it, so it's all good.
PAULA LEACH:
Lovely. I'll pretend I'm there with you.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah, they do it. Let's do it. Okay, so you've got a book coming out, this is really exciting for all of us. You came from kind of the corporate world, you've formed your own consulting company now. And you're gone out on your own and you've launched this book. And it's been three years in the making and it's finally ready and it's all here for us. And it's called Vantage Point, so it's about cultures and creating cultures where people can thrive.
And tell us a little bit about the book. Give us a little bit of what's in there, kind of a preview of what we can expect.
PAULA LEACH:
Yeah [inaudible 00:03:38] I mean, I just... This is the book, Vantage Points, so that's the book there. And yeah, so my background is, I've been in the people business across all sorts of different sorts of organizations for over 25 years. So I've worked and partnered with leaders and I've been an executive leader myself. So I was Chief People Officer in the Home Office, which is our interior ministry here in the UK. It's a big 30,000 person organization. And more laterally, I was Chief People Officer at FDM Group, which is global resourcing company. And prior to that I spent a lot of my career at [inaudible 00:04:14] Company.
And I've been in the HR function and worked, as I say, partnering with leaders for many, many years. And I have been intrigued and interested in what really makes a difference on two sides really. One is around productivity, because all organizations exist to serve a stakeholder group, or solve a problem, or whatever it is. So we need to be as productive as we can be. But on the other hand, what also works in terms of really engaging that employee mindset, such that the employee cares as much about delivering for that stakeholder and is therefor motivated to give of their best and be their most creative and innovative selves, most collaborative selves. What is it that the leader does that makes those things come together? And that's your best situation.
So I've been observing that for years. And in about the last three years, I've really started to sort of crystallize that and pull that together, because increasingly I felt I was having leaders in senior positions come to me and have conversations about wanting to lead bigger, wanting to lead better, wanting to lead with more humanity but feeling somehow held back in their corporate lives. But also understanding that the world is changing. And leadership now is not just about profit and optimizing profit. It's about sustainability, it's about the world, it's about society. So this is getting really complicated. How do I do this?
And so that's where the kind of origin came from. And I was really interested in bringing my practitioner advice to the fore. So this isn't really a research book, it's more about my experience, and simplifying, and demystifying what the real job of the leader is. And so how they can therefore create and influence cultures. So that's the kind of background to the book and yeah, really happy to explore it and some of the key things in there today.
SKOT WALDRON:
Cool. I love your idea of exploring the idea of productivity, which is what we need, what we kind of desire from an organizational standpoint, and a leadership, and in order to make money, right. We need to be productive, we need to be efficient in what we're doing. But you're also talking about... So that's kind of dealing with the hard skills in some sense, but I hear you saying that it's a lot about employee mindset and trying to get people onboard and to be aligned with the right thinking to make sure we're productive in what we're doing. So taking that idea, what I'm hearing from you, and I'm going to be a little sarcastic, but aren't people just wanting a paycheck? Don't people just show up and want a paycheck and then you pay me enough money and I'll produce for you?
PAULA LEACH:
Well, actually research doesn't tell us that. So actually, even if you go... There's all sorts of different evidence and research focused on that. But if you take Popularist, well known author on this, Daniel Pink and he will talk about what actually creates employee engagement and motivation, it's three things. And yeah, people need to be paid in it's exchange, but that is not your sustainable motivation for employee engagement. People are actually really motivated and this is based on research and evidence, they're motivated by having a purpose. So having a really clear purpose about what they're doing and buying into that purpose. So it's their why. Why am I doing this. We all need to know our why to be sort of self-engaged if you like. It's about autonomy, so having some control over what I can and can't do. Maybe where I can do it, how I contribute. And then mastery, so actually building up a sense of mastery, capability, and being able to bring that to the world and continue to grow. So those three things are actually the things that create engagement and motivation in people in organizations.
Now, sometimes when that is lacking, then it can become an exchange around, "Well, I'll do this for you and I'll just take my paycheck and go." But I don't think organizations or even individuals want that to be the way they spend the majority of their time, which is in their working lives. I think the majority of people want to be part of something and feel a part of something, that sense of belonging. And organizations need that, because that's where they're going to get the best creativity, the best problem solving, the best different sets of ideas which are going to help them through those challenges that they have as an organization in the requirement for change, which is just ever, ever growing in pace.
Most organizations right now will be talking about agility and all the different processes and mindsets around agile. Fundamentally, that really works, agility works at it's best when employees are actually fully engaged in overall purpose and have some autonomy to make decisions quickly. So yeah, I'd probably challenge you back on that.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah, good. I'm glad you did. I wanted to set you up for that. I totally agree with you. I think that there's a... I don't think most leaders believe that. But there is a pocket of them that are just like, "Hey, I'm paying you, just do the job that I've paid you to do." Right? "And don't push back. Don't ask me questions. Don't try to break the mold. Just do the job that I've asked you to do." And I think that's where we see the high turn over and that's where we see the disengaged employee. And that's where we see low productivity and misalignment inside of orginizations, right.
PAULA LEACH:
Well, and low quality.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah, definitely.
PAULA LEACH:
I mean, [crosstalk 00:10:28] care. And what we really want, and particularly the bigger the organization it is, the further away the leader is from being able to create that kind of, what I call, it's almost like a push kind of leadership. I have to create the momentum of the orginizations, the leader. That's exhausting and actually quite impossible once you get to a certain scale. You just can't simply do that. So it really is about creating the conditions within which people feel they can plug in and engage and kind of start to really believe in the overall mission of the organization and care about the quality.
Because ultimately, this is a virtual cycle or viscous cycle. So if you care about peoples engagement, ultimately they will care about what they're doing for you and for your stakeholders. And your quality issues will reduce, your customer complaints will reduce, all those things which take up a lot of time and cost a lot of money for orginizations if you don't pay attention to it. It's almost like sort of paying attention at the source and then the source will actually produce the outcomes. Otherwise you end up with those outcomes and you're trying to react and respond which is [inaudible 00:11:53] expensive.
There's a model that I put in the book which is all around spend and it's around what I call proactive or reactive spend in employee wellbeing, employee engagement. And effectively, we're going to spend a certain amount of money whether we spend it proactively or reactively. So we may spend that money and put that resources in place to support our employees, or if we don't we'll have to spend the money dealing with the aftermath of not having engaged employees. And I actually argue, there's a multiplier effect for that. Because once you've got that sort of disengagement and then the stress response and then all the other things that happen because we're human, that reactive spend is probably multiplied. So it's really worth leaders thinking carefully about how they... Take the job of leadership seriously because we're leading humans. And there's amazing potential in that if you can catch it.
SKOT WALDRON:
I love the proactive versus reactive. And I haven't heard it put quite like that, but I really, really like that. We talk about being intentional versus accidental, right. Is if you're accidental and just letting things happen, then you create a reactive culture, then you create a, "Well, we're just reacting to accidental behavior and then we're just kind of going with the flow, fly by the seat of our pants," kind of culture. And that is a problem. And we're constantly putting out fires or having to deal with things that we aren't planning on dealing with. And you're right, that does cost a lot of money. That multiplier is so real and so true. So thanks for sharing that.
So let's go back to the leader aspect, because that's where your focus is on this. You talk about helping leaders. In your bio you said, "Dream bigger and achieve sustainable impact without being someone they are not." So unpack that thought for me. What do you mean by that?
PAULA LEACH:
Yeah, so if I step back, and that's who I work with when I'm coaching people because I just love it. And it's just so brilliant when a leader realizes the agency that they have and the freedom they have actually to be a leader in the world rather than necessarily just a position on an organizational chart. It's amazing unlocking. And so the principle behind this is that, as a leader, and I love your word intentional because that's really what I think [inaudible 00:14:45] return to leadership is about. Let's simplify things. Because so many people in my experience are so busy, leadership can feel quite overwhelming, it's relentless pace. You've got a calendar back-to-back. I mean, this has happened to me and I see it everywhere. Your calendar back-to-back of meetings, emails overflowing, working long hours, this sort of just where's my space as a leader. And that space is critical in order for a leader to be able to be intentional about how they are contributing towards their collective agency of their team.
So my invitation to leaders really is to stop, the first step. And then to take a step back. And in the book, the way I describe this is that there's really only two jobs for you as a leader. And I don't really mind if you manage five people, 5,000 people or 50,000 people, the principle of leadership is still the same. So you exist as a leader to help move something from A to B, whether that is you're leading a team who have an operational responsibility, you're running a retail shop and by the end of the day you need to have made more sales then you start the day with, or you could be leading [inaudible 00:16:08]. But your leadership role is to create that collective agency of those people to help that shift.
And there's only two things you actually need to do. One is to create clarity and the other one is to get out of the way and create space for people to fill that clarity. So if there are those two jobs that a leader has to do, then I invite the leader to also think about something that they have unique available to them, which is lots of different perspectives to help inform those two jobs. And that's what I call the vantage points, so that's why the book's called The Vantage Points. And there's five that I explain.
So whether your in amongst and you work alongside people or you are from high above looking through systemically, but the one relates to specifically your question is one of the vantage points I offer a leader is inside, and to actually step back and make sure that they have reflection as part of their leadership practice. So that they themselves are conscious of... that's how they know what's going on emotionally for them, because whatever's going on emotionally for them is going to be going on for everyone else. So are you making good choices there, are you aware of it?
But also what sentence are you making if everything around you such that you are able to create clarity for people in this simple way. So I mean, your background around in communications, I mean this is so important isn't it. So many corporate messages are really complicated. No one really understands what's going on. Your job is to simplify everything and then to get out of the way and enable people to get on with what they're there to do.
So that's probably a quite long explanation, but that's pretty much the principle of my philosophy and what's in the book and what I help leaders to get under their skin [inaudible 00:18:03] unlock for themselves. It is so freeing for people.
SKOT WALDRON:
I totally agree. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about what we do, right, what I did before and kind of continue to do now where I'm dealing with leaders and personal brand development or team brand development and you doing the same thing, where we are able to go in and help them create some clarity in their own mind so that they can therefore multiply that clarity to the rest of their organization, right. And I love that. Create clarity and create space. Create clarity and get out of the way and let people do the things that you've empowered them to do, right. That autonomy idea, the mastery idea that you explained earlier are so important in order for them to be able to produce and get the things done that they want to do.
You talk also about helping leaders fall back in love with their careers. I've never really heard anybody say it like that before. Have you experienced that or seen that a lot, where leaders are just disenfranchised now with their career and just disengaged or just go through the motions every day?
PAULA LEACH:
I think we've got... The reason I sometimes talk about some of what I'm sharing in working with people is sort of almost like a return to leadership. It's just really, again, an invitation to just rediscover the joy and the point of it. Because yeah, I do come across people who are senior, have made it to all intents and purposes, and yet they're exhausted and they're frustrated with people around them. And then the office politics, let's bring that in. I mean that's highly annoying a lot of the time at best, and actually really quite damaging for some people at worst. And sometimes because of those things, that busyness, the different dynamics that we're experiencing, perhaps some of the leadership we see around us sometimes, I think I've seen people who end up almost shrinking or playing a little smaller than themselves.
And then you get those people who are like, "But I didn't think it would be like this." And particularly as I rose up through the hierarchy or whatever, I thought I have more ability to be free and sometimes actually it can be the opposite. And I'm really interested in inviting people to the kind of thing, well let's just stop and reframe this a little bit because you do have that freedom. And in order for you to create this kind of leadership in the world and this kind of impact that you're interested in, it starts with you, absolutely starts with you. And some of these things that are getting in your way or holding you back, it's fine we can clear those out. We can help to create the space for you too.
And actually for a leader to be able to create clarity and get out of the way for others, they actually do have to do that for themselves first. And that creates a sense of sort of acceptance, and joy and calm, which I think our orginizations and institutions really need. Because from that place we're able to manage a lot of our emotions and able to bring the best of that into the workplace. And ultimately we're leading groups of humans so we have to be able to be very emotionally intelligent and have spent enough time really getting to grips with ourselves.
And I sometimes find that as people so go through their careers, there's just sort of an expectation of leadership which leaves the person behind a little bit. And I want to catch the person up with the expectations so that there's an ability for them to really create that human connection with other humans. We're all adults in the workplace, all just doing different jobs. So I don't know, that's really where it comes from for me. And I've had some conversations with people who, it's like light bulbs going on, it's like all of a sudden the rainclouds go and the sun comes out because they start to think, "Yeah, actually, the corporate way or the way I thought I had to be, or the way I've ended up doing this because it just got so busy I lost track", it's a fantastic experience. And then that translates to everybody in the organization, which is fun exciting and really fun for the stakeholder because if you can multiply that through your organization as a leader, then that's going to be so good for the end customer isn't it.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah, we talk about, or I talk a lot to my clients about multiplying, being a 100x leader, right. 100 being the grade of health for your own self. We want to be as close to 100% healthy as possible and then multiply that health to other people around us. And as opposed to being... What we're finding, right, is that most leaders are about 65 plus leaders. They're not great health, they're just overworked or they're trying to push hard, but they're plus leaders. They're, "Hey, here's some tools, here's some things for you. My door's open. I'm here for you, whatever you need." Right. Instead of... And it's kind of easy to be a plus leader, but it's very difficult and you have to be, like we said, more intentional about being a multiplication leader, right, and really investing in that leadership to help bridge that to the rest of the organization.
So let me ask you this, do things look different in 2020 and beyond for leadership than they did before 2020? I'm curious your insights as to what 2020 did for leadership and orginizations moving forward.
PAULA LEACH:
Yeah. I was doing a presentation on this actually, on Monday evening, which is really... And I've got another event coming up, we talk about this a lot. I think a lot of the things that were changing the world of work, were already happening before we had a global pandemic. Technological change was happening, globalization was happening, interest in environmental and societal issues being part of businesses responsibility was happening, political disruption was happening. So there were lots of things happening in the sort of wider system of the working world. What I think the last year has done were three major drivers, so health and social pandemic, the cultural implications from a diversity perspective, from the high profile conscious of arising if you think of different events that have happened in the last year that have happened around diversity and inclusion and the economic fall out of pandemic, those three things are an accelerator to what was already happening in the actual world of work.
And I think the accelerator for me has almost taken the way people have been leading, [inaudible 00:26:16] hierarchal structure, perhaps with quite slow decision making and some of the things that are associated with that, we could just about cling on with our fingertips before 2020 to the speed at which change was happening. I think that's now gone.
We can't continue to do it the way we've always done it, at the speed now at which that change is happening. There just isn't a way to keep up with it. And actually it's the difference between feeling that we need to sort of somehow control things and letting go and feeling comfortable with being maybe a bit uncomfortable with not knowing everything, but creating more the conditions for everyone to contribute, rather than it being held in a sort of a funnel up to leadership and back down again. And that's really exciting for inclusion. And that's really exciting for generational talent exchange, where you think about young people coming into the workplace with digital capability but perhaps older generational workers having some other experiences and that exchange rather than it being a kind of a sequential activity that you have to go through, I think that's really exciting. So I think that's what 2020s done.
I don't necessarily think it's fundamentally new. I think it's been devastating for so many people. I think it's been confronting for so many of us. Some people it's been extremely enlightening and quite an interesting experience to discover things. But it certainly has been a discovery, but I think it has been an accelerator to some things that were already happening. And my hope is that the curiosity for leaders to explore and discover how they can create agency through different mechanism and through their creating conditions for success and conditions for people to thrive rather then having to know every single detail and control it all, that surely has to be the curious intention of every leader who wants to lead post 2020, I would think.
I mean, I'm sure you have some similar thoughts on it.
SKOT WALDRON:
Yeah, I love that you said that it's an accelerator. And I think that that's fantastic. Let's just take remote work, right, because that's the blaring one that's out there, right, is there were a lot of people doing remote work before, some were only remote, some were starting to dabble in remote, but there are other organizations that just, they liked having their people in the office because then they could say I know you're here from nine to five, I can see you're working. I can see.
And so what they're doing, and I was talking to my brother about this last night at dinner, and he said, "What's really interesting now is that we have people on our team that cannot work from home very well. They were A players before the pandemic and now they moved to B, C players while working from home. They don't function well in that environment. But there's other people that were B, C players before the pandemic that are A players now working at home." And so he says now, because he's with Honeywell, and he says, "Now they're starting to dabble with, 'Hey leadership, how's your team doing? Which one's are working better at home? Which ones are working better remote or working better in the office? And how do we create this understanding to get the highest productivity out of our team by yes, creating agency for them to choose and also be flexible and more, I guess, aware of our people instead of us dictating things all the time as leaders?'"
PAULA LEACH:
Yeah. I think it's interesting when you look at this whole returning to workplaces kind of thing. What will it look like? Will we ever go back? All those types of things. When you look at all of the research that's been conducted about people's attitudes post-pandemic to how they want to work, it's a bell curve. So you've got a small minority of people who want to be full-time in the office, a small minority of people who want to be full time at home, and everything in between. And that's been called hybrid working. But hybrid working is not one thing. It's so many different things. And if I could take 100 people and ask them how they want to work, I'd probably get 100 different answers. And then if I ask them next week, they might give me a different answer because it sort of depends on what they need to do.
So that brings me back to the point which is why try and please everybody because you just won't. Focus on the work. So what is the work that we need to get done? What are the outputs that we need to achieve together, that's the clarity piece. We can work together on it, let's be collaborative and make sure we're all clear why we're here, what we're doing, what we need to achieve and then get out of the way and enable people to have a choice. That isn't just their choice, part of the parameters is you have to be considerate of what other people need from you. And my example of that is, if I took somebody who was new to work, perhaps a new graduate starting in a job, they might just really need to be around people to kind of pick things up and learn how to do things. If somebody's later on in their career, 20 years having been doing something, they probably don't need that. But someone else might need it from them.
So when they're thinking about, "Oh my ideal way of working," it needs to be considerate about their needs and other people's needs. But we're all adults that can make these choices. And so I'm interested in sort of flipping it round rather than us trying to satisfy everybody by telling them what the answer is. Why don't we just talk about what the collective output needs to be and our sort of parameters and let people manage it. So it's a really good example of how leaders could actually step into that space. And I tell you what, some leaders will really embrace that. Most people will probably feel terrified by that prospect. And some employees will feel a bit scared by it, because having said I want to have a choice, when you give it to people sometimes they're a bit like, "Oh, it's down to me now." But that's what that sort of adult to adult exchange is like in an organization rather... And it will find it's balance and it doesn't have to be perfect straight away.
And I think they're the sorts of things that be interesting to see, that'll be the first example, won't it, of how people are potentially embracing or not the cultural opportunity that stands in front of us now.
SKOT WALDRON:
I love that, embracing that cultural opportunity is really key. And I hope that people see it as an opportunity. I hope they talk all of this as an opportunity to learn, and to grown, and to understand more about what is possible because now we've been forced to try things that may have made us uncomfortable. And that probably made us really uncomfortable, but we had to do it. And it shaped a lot of our thinking out of this.
You have a free Facebook group, right, that people can join. And what is that? What can I get out of that group if I join that group?
PAULA LEACH:
Yeah, so it's just started. So this is something I've been absolutely dying to do for a long time. And it's based on a lot of what we've been talking about, which is, where do I as a leader actually find that space. Just a safe space to stop, to reflect, maybe to grow, maybe to be amongst like minded people who really want to strive to be bigger leaders and I can learn from them and we can learn from each other. So that's what I wanted to establish.
So it's a new group. And I'll be putting some sort of resources in there, some content in there, some Live sessions. I'll be doing some micro-coaching in there. But also as the community grows, there's a real opportunity for anyone interested, that leader I described who was sort of feeling like perhaps there was something bigger and more, more joy for themselves to lead more authentically just to come and be part of that community and help to shape that movement.
So yeah, that's what the community is and perhaps you can share the link with people, but they can request to join. It's all quite new so you'd be part of the founding group.
SKOT WALDRON:
That would be great, yeah that's cool.
PAULA LEACH:
Building it up and starting to change things.
SKOT WALDRON:
Very cool. That's awesome. And you're going to offer some coaching on there and value adds that way for the community?
PAULA LEACH:
Yeah, yeah. There'll be some micro-coaching in there. It's basically, it's kind of bite sized space. You can dip in for five minutes and find something of value that just makes you stop and think that day. And also there'll be some things coming from the book as well that I will be putting there. And all of this is exclusive content for that group, and it's free.
I just feel passionately that if we create enough momentum and enough of a collective, we will start to shift our ideas about what's possible for us as leaders, and therefore what's possible for everybody else. So that's what I find joy in doing and I really love to do.
SKOT WALDRON:
Very cool. Thanks for doing that. We always need to look for ways to serve. I think we get a lot out of it ourselves. And we hope that it's a way to pay it forward and other people can get out what they get out of it and then share with others. So it's all about multiplication, right.
So thanks a lot, Paula. How can people get in touch with you?
PAULA LEACH:
Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn, so you can find me Paula Leach on LinkedIn. And every week I put up a blog post and I do a little video of that blog post on a Friday as well. I'm on Instagram, @VantagePointsConsulting, so yeah, give me a follow on there, that would be great. And my website is vantagepointsconsulting.com.
SKOT WALDRON:
Beautiful. That's easy. As a brand guy I love trying to keep things consistent.
PAULA LEACH:
And-
SKOT WALDRON:
Yes. Check out the book.
PAULA LEACH:
The book, which is available in the UK and Europe now so you can buy it. It's available on Kindle on amazon.com, I believe. And coming out in April in hardcover in the US.
SKOT WALDRON:
Very cool. Good luck with the book launch, super excited for you. I know this is a new adventure for you and I hope it's been a good one. And I hope it continues to grow and just explode. So congratulations on everything and thanks for being on the show today, it was awesome having you.
PAULA LEACH:
Thank you Skot, great conversation. I loved it, thank you.
SKOT WALDRON:
Thank you, Paula, for being here today. I really got a lot out of this. I love and I guess you probably heard me, I love this idea of this proactive versus reactive spend and how we really need to be aware of that. And how many of us just start spending money once there's a problem. And that's completely reactive. And how much more expensive is that going to be than if we were able to spend the money earlier to be proactive? So I love that idea. I love this idea of leadership, their role is to move something from A to B. Okay. We need to get something from A to B. And that's people, that's a product, that's a company, that's a philosophy, that's something we need to move from A to B.
And we do that through creating clarity and through creating space. Clarity and space. And she said this, and I'm going read this from a note that she had sent me prior to this, but some of the biggest mistakes that companies are making. "Leadership approach is often built upon the task, rather than creating clarity with regard to the destination." So, "It's built upon a task rather than creating clarity with regard to the destination. And then creating space for employees to thrive, be creative, and be autonomous." Boom, okay. That's what it is. So thank you Paula for dropping that on us. It was awesome, I love it. If y'all want to find out more about Paula, check the information below. If you want to find out more about these shows and me in particular you can go to skotwaldron.com, got all the shows there. They're all on my YouTube channel, they're all on Medium.com. And you can find me on LinkedIn, I would love to connect with you. Thank you everybody for being here again on Unlocked. We will see you next time.
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