Unlocking Sales Leadership With Tom Tonkin

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Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Unlocked, where we talk about unlocking the potential of you, the people you work with, and the people you do life with. At the time of this recording, I’m offering all of you, yes, my lovely listeners, a free 15 minute communication coaching call. You come with some kind of communication problem, and I give you a solution. My calendar link is in the show notes so check that out.

Sales, systems, leadership – they all kind of combine together. And we’re going to get a little tactical in this thing. But we’re also going to talk about just the culture around sales and the mentality around leadership and culture and sales and systems and all the things. Tom’s a smart dude. We’re going to get into this. Tom Tonkin is the principal of the Tonkin Group. Dr. Tonkin, he has his PhD. He’s going to talk much of that later on. He’s an executive in the Professional Services and Software Sales arena with over 25 years of business and technology experience. He serves customers and clients as a Performance Consultant at the Tonkin Group, aiming to materially improve the performance of leaders, their teams, and their organizations. He previously served as Senior Principal Consultant for Change Management and Transformation, Thought Leadership, and Advisory Services. Before joining Cornerstone OnDemand, Dr. Tonkin spent 19 years at Oracle, where he held various positions.

And so, we’re going to dive into this stuff. So pay attention, get some hands, get some dirty stuff, you know, like get your hands dirty with the beginning of the conversation. But then stay tuned because we’re going to start talking idea and mentality and all these other things that really, really drive the performance of your organization. So here we come, Tom.

Tom Tonkin (01:37.555)
Skot, it is a pleasure. I’ve been waiting for this for some time. You’re a busy guy. I didn’t get on your calendar for a while, so I was excited to be a roller.

Skot Waldron (01:44.349)
That makes me feel so important. Thank you, Tom. Thank you, man. Thanks for saying that. no, it’s been, it’s been really great. I’ve met some really cool people and then, you know, when people are like, Hey man, I can’t get in until like next year. I’m like, wow, that feels really good, but I’m so sorry. You know, at the same time, I’m really sorry. yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it’s been, it’s been really good. It’s been really fun meeting great people and.

Tom Tonkin (02:01.422)
Yeah. Still good you. Good for you.

Skot Waldron (02:13.011)
You seem like a great guy, so don’t ruin it, Tom.

Tom Tonkin (02:16.11)
You got to get a streak going of great people and there’s this guy Tom that shows up

Skot Waldron (02:18.315)
Yeah, I I got a streak going. know I do. Tom. It’s always Tom. No, man. This is cool. We’re going to, I really want to get into the sales and systems idea that you have. mean, it’s like one thing to do the sales talk and I’ve had guests on the show that we talked about sales and the ick of sales and things like that. Right. But I like the systems piece, you have the sales and the systems. And you said to me before that usually.

It’s one of those things that’s broken and then people wonder what’s wrong. So, expand on that. Let’s just kick this thing off. Expand on that.

Tom Tonkin (02:55.17)
Yeah, so let’s put some context and some numbers around it to make this interesting. So, there was a study that came out, DePaul University. DePaul has got a whole entire sales program. And for you to hire a B2B salesperson today, according to DePaul University, the first 12 months is going to cost you two thousand, three hundred two. I’m sorry. hundred and thirty-two thousand dollars. And that includes commission and all of that. By the way, it’s the salary component of that number is about 100,000. So, it’s 60 base and 40 commission. Then there’s benefits, but the thing that people don’t realize is then there’s systems cost built into that. CRMs, landing pages, websites, nurture programs, phone call numbers, all of that gets baked into that.

And so, when someone says, well, I’m going to hire a salesperson, you need to give them a fishbowl to swim around in to be able to be a salesperson. One of the, and I have another video podcast out there where I talk about this, sort of the seven components that a salesperson needs to become successful. Things like CRM, a list, a phone number, a product offering, know, those kinds of things. And I think those are usually the ones that go by the wayside.

And so, over the many years I’ve been doing this, I’ve kind of doubled down on the systems part of the business as well as the sales part. I’ve always done the selling part, and I went back and like any salesperson, I’ve had good years, and I’ve had not so good years. I have, you know, salespeople have, you know, they are the best with excuses. can give you a whole list of really valid excuses on why I make my number. but.

Sometimes it had to do with systems, and I decided to make a business out of it. I decided to say, how can I help people that are trying to, especially entrepreneurs or startup companies that are like, I’m really good at this thing. I’m an engineer, I’m really good, but you need sales to start making money and get out there. And that’s why we decided to provide both of those parts.

Skot Waldron (05:15.241)
All

Tom Tonkin (05:17.984)
Thing.

Yep. So, yes, people think that systems equate to software installed somewhere and I can access this and put data into it. And though that’s a component of it, it’s a very, very small component, right? There’s systems capital S and systems little s, right? That includes things like how does that process work? I’ll give you a good example or at least a model here. Let’s say you are a HubSpot.

That’s a CRM system, right? And you’re a HubSpot customers. I know customers that thrive using HubSpot and I know customers that don’t thrive using HubSpot. The software is the same. Why wouldn’t they all be thriving? And it’s usually the process or the, again, what I would say the little S, right? The processes in the systems or should say the processes on top of the system to be able to make it work for what it is that you’re trying to work.

And so, when somebody says, hey, Tom, I’d like to hire you as a salesperson. And again, I am fractional and outsource sales. I’d never go into it with at least a proposal for a system or a assessment of their particular system. because I know that that’s going to be a component of success. And so I see that there’s a lot of people that misuse the technology. They look at it as technology, as opposed to a tool be able to be successful.

Skot Waldron (07:15.441)
Okay. So, I purchased the technology cause somebody from HubSpot or somewhere else sold me on this cool stuff, all the bells and whistles and all the stuff that it can do and automate for me and et cetera, et cetera. And I go super cool, go sales team. And then they fail. And then I go, what’s the problem with HubSpot? You promised me all this stuff, and I’m supposed to crush it. And now it’s broken. And then your salespeople are frustrated.

What, what’s the, what do you think is the first thing they should do? So, say we’ve got the, technology stuff. What do we need to do first? Like is we’re going into this thing and building a sales team and maybe we have an existing sales team, but we’re trying to really implement the right systems and processes to make it happen. What do, what do I need to do?

Tom Tonkin (08:01.07)
There’s, yeah, so there’s usually some kind of sales process that you follow. You go away from lead generation to close business. And one of the things that I have found over the many years where I’ve done actual research in this is that there’s usually one of those phases that isn’t happening. So, let’s say you go from lead generation, and you move to discovery. don’t know, maybe 80% of the people in discovery and then, you go down the funnel across the, know, however you, your process works. And eventually one of those things kind of drops off faster than it should. And that’s a candidate for analysis to say what’s actually happening in there. And a couple things, two things will happen. A, your sales team is not equipped to do the said thing. Maybe it’s objection handling or something. Or B, your sales system isn’t there to support that particular.

And that’s kind of how I divide the world into sales and systems in that perspective. And again, I’m using a machete, not a scalpel that sort of chopped us up, right? I’m just using big chunks here at this point. And so I think the first thing I would do or what I do all the time is say, let’s go through this and see what the issue is. And many times, it’s one or two parts of that particular stage. I don’t know if you’re familiar with journey mapping.

Skot Waldron (09:26.993)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Tom Tonkin (09:28.344)
So, the sort of the layman’s view of journey mapping is you map a journey of a particular actor in this case. So, let’s say it’s a salesperson or a customer and you go through the whole thing and there’s experience scores that were painful, that was great or whatever it is. Many people, what they do when they do sort of process engineering or journey mapping is they’ll just say my entire process thing, someone throw it all out, start over.

And that’s not the case. What you really should take a look at is if you do journey mapping, you’ll find that anywhere between 10 to 15 % of that process is the problem. But unfortunately, 10 or 15% of those, they taint the entire process. And so, what I go is I go back, let’s go find the 10 or 15%, fix it, and then you’ll see that the whole entire process will actually work for your benefit.

Skot Waldron (10:20.773)
So, it’s like this it’s like this little broken piece that’s clogging up the whole funnel.

Tom Tonkin (10:28.556)
And not only does it clogging it up, but it gives you this icky feeling, if you will. I know technical terms, I’m sorry. That the whole thing is broken. Right. And so, you start making generalizations of, well, the whole thing doesn’t work in the whole of this and, and that people hear into that. And then the next thing you know, they’re tossing really good parts of the process or really parts, good parts of the system only to have to go back and replace it.

Skot Waldron (10:37.605)
Yeah, very technical. Well done. Well done.

Tom Tonkin (10:58.826)
And so, I have found and I’m, yet I’ve done this going on 30 years. I have done this and I’m yet to find a process that was like completely broken. I usually find, you know, maybe it’s 20, 25 percent or whatever, but it’s never 100 or even 50 percent. And so, I think there’s value there. Before you throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater, I would take a look at that first.

Skot Waldron (11:29.339)
Okay. There is, you know, the world of sales is a tricky one. Think, you know, it’s, it’s one of those things. It’s like, you can never go to enough sales seminars and get enough sales templates and get enough scripts and get enough role plays and get enough. Like there’s always so many, I was just listening to one this morning as a matter of fact. and I can’t even imagine how many I’ve listened to.

And it’s always like little tweaks, nothing real revolutionary, but it’s more evolutionary. It’s like, hey, we’ve kind of evolved from this kind of email template to now this kind of email template and kind of using these types of tools versus these types of tools. And I don’t know, there’s always something to it, but at the end of the day, what, what is sales? What sales about for you? Why you get into this world of sales when everybody else is trying to avoid it.

Tom Tonkin (12:23.118)
I mean, I do think, and this is gonna sound trite, maybe a little bit noble or self-righteous, but I do believe that if salespeople have a helper or type of an attitude, you’ll do well, right? Because of the idea, I’ll give you an example. Very, very simple. I talk about this analogy all the time. It’s the drill versus the whole analogy that I use. You go to the hardware store.

And it’s a Saturday and it’s full of people running around and you’re looking for a drill and you go to the one of the people and go, excuse me, know, what I or where you sell drills and the guy goes, yeah, sure. I’ve got a bunch of drills. You go down the aisle and show you cordless drills and variable speed and I’m domestically challenged. So don’t know any of this stuff, but anyway, but the point here is you end up talking about the drill, but the reality is, is you don’t even want the drill. You want the hole that it’s going to make.

And even on top of that, that hole is going to do something. You’re going to hang a picture. You’re going to hang a bookshelf. Heck, maybe you’re putting a fence post in and you need a hole for that. And so we tend to focus on the drill. And that’s going to be the metaphor that I’ll use here, right? Is everyone looking to for the hole or for the shelf or for whatever it is, but we end up sort of revolving around the drill. And so

What sales should be, continuing with the metaphor, is you should worry about the people that eat holes and what they need the holes for. And that serves as a catalyst to get into a brand-new conversation with your customers that, again, another little tagline of mine is, reduces the friction of buying for that particular customer to solve that problem.

So, I think to me, that’s what that is, is understanding those problems. You people come to you because you have a thing that solves a problem, hopefully, that’s the idea anyway, and they need it solved. They don’t necessarily care how it gets solved, but however we do, because we want it to be our thing. And so then that’s when we get all kinds of wound up.

Skot Waldron (14:41.605)
Let me, let me, okay. Let me push back a little bit. Let me throw this at you. You’ll say people don’t care how it gets solved. Let, in my experience, I’ll, I’ll throw a proposal out. And I was even thinking about this this morning. It’s like, bold would it be? Somebody comes to me and they’re trying to hire me for a speaking gig. And I just, I just, you know, I write a proposal, and my proposal is like two sentences and a number.

And I just say, this is what I understand you want. Here’s my price to do that. And they look at it and they go, well, wait a second, Skot, like, how are you going to do that? Like, what’s that look like and how, what are we going to be doing in this thing? Like they, sometimes I feel like people, yes, they want the whole, but they also want like some details and some structure and some formatting and some. control over how it’s going to be presented and how we’re going to do this. Like, you know, I don’t know. Like, is that real? Or is it just them trying to get control of a situation? Like, what is that?

Tom Tonkin (15:47.789)
No.

Well, first of all, when someone says, so I do that, by the way, when you’re if you were a customer of mine, I would tell you what it is and for the price within a minute to five minutes of our conversation.

And I would only say that if I understood what the whole was. And again, we’re just going to beat that metaphor to death, right? If I understood your whole, right? Then I would, I would say that my, then there are signals. If you come back to me and you start asking a bunch of questions to me, those are buying signals because you didn’t back out and say, well, that’s, that’s too expensive. If you said it was too expensive, that means that you don’t understand the value or I don’t understand the problem very, very well. So, everything to me becomes a learning experience in that exchange. And then I adjust or calibrate depending on one-on-one year action. Again, I’m a master practitioner in neuro linguistic programming. And we work off of a tenant that says, I am responsible for the communication that you and I have not you. Right. So, if I say something, you don’t react the way I want you to or think you should, then that’s my issue. I’ve got to calibrate what it is that I say. I don’t like to say it again, right? As if waiting for you to figure it out, right? I have to calibrate my communications. And so if you say to me, how are you going to do it? Great. Let’s have the how conversation. If you’re going to say that’s too expensive, then let’s have the value conversation, right? These are all calibrations that you go through selling. That is the selling process.

So, when you say that, yes, there is a component of control in there as well, but it’s still a buying signal that you’ve entered. So, for example, let’s just, if you don’t mind, let’s have a little fun with your boldness there. What would those two sentences be?

Skot Waldron (17:53.073)
What would those two sentences be?

I understand your, well, actually I would just bullet it almost. I’d like, objective, you know, deliver a keynote talk to your audience at this particular conference. The pro no, that’s not the objective. Okay. That that’s what I understand the task, the job. That’s the drill. And then the problem is they have, they’re in a new position and.

Tom Tonkin (18:04.11)
Okay, well.

That’s not the objective. Nope. The drill. That’s the drill.

Skot Waldron (18:28.165)
They were on the committee last year and the speaker kind of bombed a bit and they feel some pressure from the higher ups to deliver a better talk. So that’s the problem. And then really what it is is what’s the value to them for that, that problem. so, I’ll try to, I’ll try to.

Tom Tonkin (18:46.444)
Well, and so that’s what I’m questioning, right? If you say deliver a keynote, which is I know you do that all the time, right? If you’re delivering keynotes, that’s drill conversation. Question is, what is the outcome that your client is looking for when you deliver? Right. Maybe in imparting some wisdom, maybe getting people inspired, maybe increasing employee satisfaction because again, it’s not about you.

Skot Waldron (18:56.241)
Totally, totally, yeah.

Tom Tonkin (19:16.108)
The management leadership team was thoughtful enough to bring people in to learn something new because they want to feel like they’re being developed. These are all the whole descriptions. And so, if I were you, those bullet points, those are the bullet points that I would do and then I would put the value. And then they would say what? How are you going to do that? Buying signal.

start bringing that, you know, I will ensure that you have a note that you would be proud of.

Again, not about you, about them. And I think that’s what I would do. And if you put that, okay, we’re kind of kidding about two sentences. How about a page? Describing these things, giving them maybe three areas. You will see, should forecast employee satisfaction go up after our keynote, I mean, now you’re talking right? I don’t know about you, but I’m ready to buy your services given that value. So anyway, that’s my point. I I kind of put you on the spot. Sorry about that. I mean, right, but that’s kind of where I was. I’m going with all of this. And I think sometimes people feel compelled to talk about their thing because they feel like they have a responsibility to do the thing. And I’m not suggesting that you don’t, but that should be a foregone conclusion.

Skot Waldron (20:36.827)
No, that’s good.

Tom Tonkin (20:56.3)
That you’re going to deliver a quality keynote, the question becomes is, know, I’m not going to make you look like a fool, know, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff that you said earlier.

Skot Waldron (21:07.419)
Yeah, there’s a, that, I’ll, I’ll dig into that a lot in my sales calls and understanding really what’s the problem here and the goal that they’re reaching for and, kind of dig into what they feel the value is of that thing. I might get a little too wordy in my proposals. It’s kind of what I’m thinking of. It’s like, man, what if I just like got really down to it and just like, bam, hit that one thing, you know? so anyway, just, just.

Tom Tonkin (21:36.686)
Well, I will tell you that when I write proposals, because usually I’m and I’d be more than glad to share this. have two sentences in the executive summary. You open up the title page and it says in the next six months, I’m going to have I’m going to close five hundred thousand dollars’ worth of new business.

Skot Waldron (21:37.393)
Thank you about that.

Tom Tonkin (21:59.468)
That is my, that is my, that is literally my first sentence in my proposals.

Skot Waldron (22:07.729)
because that’s what you got out of the sales call.

Tom Tonkin (22:09.388)
Yeah, I mean, whatever, you know, that’s they they’re looking for increased revenue. That’s it. And then the rest become, you know, the accoutrements to the how. So they feel like they’re buying something. But that is the first thing that I put on literally put the first thing on that proposal.

Skot Waldron (22:26.193)
Hmm. What’s interesting about what you just said is you said that how makes them feel like they’re buying something. That’s interesting to me. because I also hear my, and my coach before would tell me. Skot, put a number on there and you don’t have to get so detailed on the house stuff. Like just put a number in there and does it really matter if their problem is solved and if they’re achieving their goal, does it really matter how much it costs? Like.

Tom Tonkin (22:32.898)
Mm-hmm.

Skot Waldron (22:56.177)
At the end of the day, if they see the value, does it matter if it’s a hundred-thousand-dollar thing or like a $80,000 thing or like a $10,000 thing? If they see the value and what you’re doing and can deliver on the thing, should they even, should they even worry about it? But the how I think is still like what you just said gives them something to purchase, like a thing.

Tom Tonkin (23:19.554)
Well, mean, and what I will do also is, and this is kind of my own principles is, if I can’t write down 200% ROI on a back of a napkin, then I won’t bid on the project.

And I’ll tell them that. And they said, no, but Tom, like your how, whatever it is that the how looks like. And I said, but how does it matter? On the flip side of the coin, it doesn’t matter if I can’t get you the return that you should be getting. And I believe you should not pay for my services or any service that anybody could provide if it’s less than 200% ROI.

And I show them the calculation and all this other stuff of how I believe I’m going to get there. So again, this year, it’s a lot of the what the results, the outcome and what people really appreciate. And this is a little bit of nuance because of the business I’m in. People appreciate that approach because when they hire me, that is how I then sell for them.

One of the biggest objections that I get is how could you possibly sell my thing if you don’t know how to do it?

And I said, “Because do I need to know how you do it? Don’t you know how to do it? I sell outcomes. If I were to sell on your behalf and you and I were having a discovery call right now, I would have a bunch of those kinds of valued discussions. And then I would use that as a salesperson to go out and talk to people. Eventually they’re going to say, well, okay, well, you want to talk to Skot. But by the time they want to talk to you, all the how’s, all the numbers, all the value, all of the churn that goes with it. I will tell you what my clients, when I work with them and they get on a of a closing call, it’s like a nod. It’s like a, yeah, what Tom said is true and I’m the guy who’s gonna deliver it for you. And that’s it. So I don’t need to know how you do anything. That’s your job.

Skot Waldron (25:40.795)
So, do you think that’s you selling for somebody else? Do you think us selling for ourselves? If we’re in that space we get, we get too worried about the how, because it’s our thing and it’s, you know, the curse of knowledge.

Tom Tonkin (25:43.469)
Music.

Amen. That is the word I use, curse of knowledge. I’m not going to add to that, Skot. That’s exactly what happens. I would actually sprinkle a little of emotional attachment.

Who said that? Right, I mean, it’s my thing, dude. Come on. My thing, you know, and then you look at it like nobody cares about your thing. You’re the only guy on the planet that cares about your thing. By the way, that works both ways. Right. So sometimes people will say, you know, I can’t believe this happened or I I didn’t deliver on time or whatever. It’s like, OK, well, what are you going to do about it? You know, my thing, my thing. Well, no, no, no, no. Forget about your thing. It’s over.

Skot Waldron (26:08.867)
emotional attachment. Yeah,

Yeah, that’s my thing.

Tom Tonkin (26:38.382)
Go fix it. I will tell you, and I’m being incredibly transparent as part of my principle. I’ll tell you what I just did. I have a client that I’m working with, a great, great client, and I had told him that I was going to deliver to him X amount of clients. And I have not delivered. I’ve delivered some, but I have not delivered to the number that I said. I sent him an email and said, “I’m not gonna charge you. I was like, what are you talking about?

I didn’t get to it. He’s like, yeah, but you’re working on it. You’re making phone calls. It’s like, are you are you paying me to make phone calls and to really work hard or are you paying me to get you clients so that it works both ways? I Tom can’t have it both ways. So, I basically called him, and he said, “Well, that was unexpected. Boy, that’s a breath of fresh air. You know, your sales guy. Right now, do you think I have that guy forever? Darn toot and I do.

He’s going to be my customer forever because I have it. I didn’t sit around and wait for him to figure out that he’s not getting clients and he’s paying me. If I am going to put my neck out, I’ve got to take the risks as well. I mean, I literally did that last week. And I, and by the way, you know, I know that I’ll get there. I know that I’ll get there. And, you know, we’ve got a long-term contract that he pays me on a monthly basis. So, he’ll pay me next month when I do get there and he’ll be fine with it.

Skot Waldron (28:07.419)
Tell me, another scenario where you’ve gone in, there was something that was broken that you, that you see a lot and then what the solution was. Give me kind of a case study.

Tom Tonkin (28:20.346)
There are basically two major case studies, and they really revolve around sales and systems. It’s scenario number one, I have salespeople, and I think I have systems. And so Tom, what I want you to do is I want you to come in and coach my salespeople and show them how to sell. Cause I think that’s my problem. And so, I go in there and do my discovery, which includes both sales and systems, I find out that their systems are incredibly broken. The salespeople are frustrated, right? CRM is wired, and this is, I can’t believe, I forgot to say this, but CRMs, and I’m using CRM as kind of a label to leadership reporting. CRMs are bought by leadership, right? They’re managed by leadership, all this other stuff, right?

Most CRMs are configured to report on salespeople’s activity, not to help salespeople sell. Right, so what happens? I run my CRM, and I see your pipeline is small or you haven’t closed what you need to do. So, what do? I turn into a big club, and I beat you up and I say, okay, you know, until you start making some money, excuse me, I’m gonna have meetings with you every other day. I’m gonna keep running the report, keep pressing the button. So, it becomes a punitive product.

And then what happens is salespeople then are fearful of putting any information in there because all they know is they’re just going to come back and hit them over the head. So, it becomes this very dynamic relationship, this very stressed relationship between that. I always advise people, the CRM really first and foremost should help salespeople sell. So, you should configure it as such. So, I had a client, and this was yet another client I did this, where I did a qualitative interview with other salespeople and that was the conclusion. Some even had their own like mini-CRM that no one knew about.

So, they could actually sell and then they would just transfer the data into the big CRM, the minimum to baby report what they’re doing until I was able to change the culture with leadership. And so, there’s a scenario, right? Is this configuration of technology as it pertains to how do I facilitate it? So that’s one thing. The other thing is, sure.

Skot Waldron (30:53.585)
Let me stop by there for a second. Cause you said you had to change the culture of leadership. Cause oftentimes, and I’ll think about, your system’s broken. Your product’s broken. Why did your company fail or why were you struggling last year? And it’s like, the product just didn’t launch well. It didn’t go well. It, you know, just did this. I sit there and go, okay, well, maybe your product was flawed in some way, or form. But at the end of the day.

Isn’t that a people problem? Isn’t that really like leadership and people problem thing? So, you had to change the culture of leadership to what in a way?

Tom Tonkin (31:32.91)
Well, you know, culture is probably too strong of a word, Skot. Let me rephrase that. I think it’s the mindset towards selling.

Skot Waldron (31:40.401)
Yeah, sure. Okay. But what did you change from two?

Tom Tonkin (31:46.872)
So it was, I had to have them understand that leadership really should be about supporting your subordinates, not monitor them or.

Yeah, not monitoring them, right, as to what your expectation is for activity. And so…

It’s kind of like a diagnostic, right? When I walk in and I’ve seen hundreds if not thousands of CRM setups in my life. And it’s kind of a diagnostic. It’s like reading tea leaves. It’s like, hey, can you show me how you go about using your CRM? And you could tell, is this CRM set up for success for salespeople or is this a punitive system to beat people over the head when they don’t close a certain amount of money?

And that is an indicator quickly for me, leading indicator to tell me what leadership’s perspective on selling is.

So, that’s one scenario, right? Get the, and the other scenario is you have poorly prepared or poorly developed salespeople. And there’s a lot of those, right? I mean, why do sales have such a bad, you know, it’s a four-letter word to a lot of people, right? It’s this nasty thing you think of a used car salesperson, you use, know, greedy, you know, well, because usually cliches come from some level of truth. There are people like that that are out for themselves or want to sell the product. They don’t care if it solves any problem as long as I could sell it for the right amount of money to get me my commission. I could care less what it is. I would also say that a lot of companies’ banks on that attitude. And it just propagates a pervasive bad taste of selling to your client base.

Skot Waldron (33:52.625)
There’s a whole culture of this mentality of a punitive type policing of salespeople or even the emotional side of things. There’s this idea of motivation. What motivates them? it an intrinsic or extrinsic? Tell me about that. What’s your mentality on? Well, our people, we wish they were just more intrinsically motivated instead of only working for the dollar, only working for the commission, which is an extrinsic motivator. What’s your viewpoint on the intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation for your salespeople?

Tom Tonkin (34:41.824)
I think it’s a sales culture that gives salespeople the cue. They condition salespeople to have that extrinsic motivation as it pertains to success. Let me give you a few pieces of data and facts. So I coach salespeople as well. I will tell you that if you look at my client list, they’re either very young, or they’re on their twilight years. Nobody in the middle.

I’m very young, Tom, I don’t really know what I’m doing. I’m getting into it. I could use some help. I’m not getting the kind of coaching I thought I would get from my manager. And I really want to make it a go sale. Or you have the late 50s, early 60s guy who’s like, hey, all of these years selling, some years are good, some years are bad. I’d like to know why some years are good and some years are bad. Can you help me and get me my last few years to be good?

In the middle are people who are, you know, grinding. Well, I’ll figure it out. I’ll do it. I’ll know when I get there.

When people achieve quota and exceed quota and are on the leaderboard, which is how you get on the leaderboard, there’s this intrinsic thing that comes about. You get accolades. You get to go to President’s Club. You have people seeing you as an expert in the field.

And so even though I agree with you, that extrinsic motivation around compensation and sales is one that’s very strong. I also do believe that it leads to intrinsic feelings of worth, of value. And it works the other way too, right? If you’re at the bottom of the leaderboard and everyone sees that, you’re not as good.

All of those bad feelings. And so I see a lot of those people in the middle as they’re growing. They’re like, yeah, the money is good, but it really is about the accolades and the recognition and my validity from others that I’m worthy as an employee.

Skot Waldron (37:11.977)
That’s good. I tend to agree with you. Do you think that leadership should be acknowledging those things when they’re talking to the salespeople? Not acknowledging the salesperson and saying, hey, good job, appreciate, you’re really improving, et cetera, et cetera. Although they could obviously feed on those things to help with that interest but actually address the intrinsic motivation side of not trying to sell people on taking less of a commission. I’m not saying that, but.

It is the, hey, our culture is about, hey, this commission structure is built in place. You’re going to know how you get paid. We’re going to do these things. This is how you’re going to do it. But really what we want is for you to build pride in what you’re doing here and what you’re able to accomplish. Like addressing those things. Do you feel leadership does that appropriately?

Tom Tonkin (38:04.078)
So, first question you said, should they do that? Absolutely, no caveats to that statement you made. Here’s, here’s the problem. So, I did another, so I’ve been doing this long time and again, I have a PhD in organizational leadership, and I’ve been doing a lot of the studying. Cause remember part of my thing was I wanted to know how I can have better years than not. And one of the studies that I conducted was how do salespeople get promoted?

How does leadership become leadership? Again, in sales, right, just tightening it up. And the number one thing with a bullet, you had to have met or exceeded your quota. Now tell me, your leadership expert. What’s that got to do with leading people?

Skot Waldron (38:57.573)
Feel that’s just the result, right? Of all the other things.

Tom Tonkin (39:00.11)
Well, I mean, if you’re an individual, maybe you’re a good self-leader, but you and I both know this. And I can now remove the term sales out of this and just say leadership. You and I both know that if you move from an individual contributor role to a manager, director, leader, those skill mixes are 50 % different plus, right? And so what happens is, okay, guy leaves.

Skot Waldron (39:23.099)
Definitely, yep.

Tom Tonkin (39:27.886)
He quits manager, we need to get a new manager. I look at the leaderboard, I see this guy at 347% quota, and I promote him. And everyone claps and everyone says, well, of course he’s the best sales guy because I saw him in the leaderboard. So therefore, he earned this. And then he becomes super sales guy. He comes in and he starts saying, Skot.

You should have closed this. Tell you what, let me close that deal for you. Because you’re not really that good. So let me help you. And so maybe that’s how they think leaders are. As opposed to saying, Skot, my observation is as follows. Let me help develop that skill in you. Let me guide you. Leadership be kinds of statements. We rarely, if ever, have that. And when I interviewed leaders, they basically said, “You’re right. I never got the training. I had kind of figured out myself. If you went back to some of my direct reports in the first couple of years, they would think I was a jerk on and on and on and on and on. And so, they took it upon themselves to move that forward. So now imagine everybody on the planet goes through the same exact journey. Now you have a culture, a perspective, I know, like a cult of personality, right? You’re a sales manager and now that means this. You’re hard on your people, all those sorts of these stereotypical qualifications, but that’s how they were born. And so…

That is something that I don’t know how we’re ever gonna fix that. Because imagine the opposite. Imagine if you had a team and you assessed them all in leadership skills. Let’s say you had a team of 10 people. You had to do a promotion and the person that excelled in leadership skills was, I don’t know, eighth on the list and you promoted that person. He said, this person has the best leadership skills. They’re going to be able to lead you and develop all of you and coach you. What would you think the other nine people would think? This guy doesn’t know how to sell. And the thing is, people don’t quite understand that you don’t really need to know how to sell at that point. You have an appreciation of what it is.

And the fact that you were probably a salesperson for maybe five or seven years, it’s probably plenty to have an appreciation. But do you have this leadership skills, the coaching skills, and development skills needed to grow your organization? And if the answer is yes, that’s the person that should be promoted.

Skot Waldron (42:24.037)
That, that’s interesting. would, I would love to see that happen within a culture and in a company. Cause you’re right. It does not happen. Like not the ones I’ve worked with anyway. The person that gets promoted is the best that that thing they go from a maker to a manager and then they go, well, wait a second. Now I’m leading a bunch of people, and I don’t really know how to lead a bunch of people and they’re all my peers. And now I’m intimidated because I don’t know, I don’t want to be holier than now kind of thing. So, but I also, well, that’s true too. They could go in saying that, right? But it, it just, that whole thing is just so tricky. And then they missed the sales part because they’re like, well, I got into sales because I love sales. I didn’t get into sales because I wanted to lead a group of people. You know, like

Tom Tonkin (43:15.202)
Now here’s the ironic piece, which is you usually make less money.

Skot Waldron (43:19.857)
That’s true too. Most salespeople are like, no, no, no, no, no. I don’t want that because that’s totally going to cut my, my, my, my income. Like I don’t want that sales position.

Tom Tonkin (43:23.694)
Thanks.

Yep. And so therefore, if you’re a leader in that situation, you should honor that and you should find the right person. Like, for example, my thing is there’s plenty of leadership assessments out there. You know, they’re all as good as any. Why not, you know, use that as a tenant or a principal, you know, and hire or promote people in that dimension? And then you do it every time people like, okay, I get it. If I want to be a manager.

And I am, let’s say I’m crushing my number every single year, but yet I don’t get promoted because I don’t have the leadership skills. Okay. Do you want to be promoted? Boom. Call your boss and say, hey, can you develop me as a leader? Be glad to get developed as leader next year. You’re promoted. Right. I mean, that’s, it’s not outrageous what we’re asking to have happen yet. It doesn’t happen.

Skot Waldron (44:18.129)
It doesn’t, it doesn’t. That would be so fun. That’d be really cool to see. I’m pretty bold. I know we say that’s bold, but like really is it just makes sense? It doesn’t make sense, right? It’s not, it shouldn’t be bold. Tom, this is awesome, man. I could talk to you for a long time because you’re fun and because I am getting so much out of this. Anyway, where do people get in touch with you? They want to say, Hey, Tom, I need you in my organization. I need you for me. I need; I just need more of what you got. Where, where, do they go?

Tom Tonkin (44:47.202)
Well, know, I mean, my party trick is if you go to Google and type in Tom Tonkin, I have the front page of Google. So, I’m hard to find. know it sounds kind of egotistical, but I think it’s kind of a unique name. And so you can certainly find me on LinkedIn. I’ve got all sorts of different web pages and sites out there, but probably the best is LinkedIn. There’s a link there for my calendar. Again, reducing friction. People would say you put my LinkedIn; my phone number is all there. If you call, I’m going to pick up.

Why? I’m a sales guy at heart.

Skot Waldron (45:19.547)
That’s what you do. That’s what you do. that’s awesome, Tom. Thanks for, thanks for being one of the good ones. I appreciate you, man.

Tom Tonkin (45:26.928)
Thank you, my friend. Thank you for the opportunity to chat.

Skot Waldron (45:30.265)
Yeah, I appreciate you to keep doing the good work.

Tom Tonkin (45:33.614)
Take care.